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"Stephen Radford" acrostic - 1603?


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I was poking around this morning and came across the Arundel Manuscripts, a collection of manuscripts collected by The 2nd Earl of Arundel who was a friend of Bacon's.

https://sirbacon.org/highgate.htm

One of the manuscripts contains a lot of poems by various authors (Sir John Davies, King James I, Sit Walter Raliegh, etc.), and many not attributed to anyone. That grabbed my curiosity thinking that maybe there are some by Bacon that nobody knows about. You know, wishing for something, trying to look under stones.

Anonymous miscellany containing poetry by King James VI and I, Sir John Davies, Sir John Harington, Sir Walter Ralegh, Sir Thomas Erskine and others. Probably compiled at court between 1603-1606.

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?index=11&ref=Add_MS_22601

There is a poem by Stephen Radford with an acrostic of his name:

image.thumb.png.87f8d4c0693d3b64e005c37435e26d86.png

 

I don't see anything about him on Google, have no idea who he is. But it is good to see an obvious acrostic from Bacon's time.

 

 

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Rob, Thanks again for sharing ! I had just begun to flip the pages and my eyes were immediatly drawn by the Poem "O yes o yes o yes" when I saw the name "MERLIN" !

And the number 1, 2 and 3 are relevant ( 123 = FRANCIS TUDOR - De Fructivis cipher)

Moreover, we can see 1 ) ..... FREE WILL !!!

And on the next  4 ) That none can be perfectly wise but lovers

 

It is impossible to love and to be wise. " FRANCIS BACON - Of Love - Essays

 

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Indeed! I've read a few poems that I wonder if they could be Bacon. A handwriting expert would be handy. 😉

 

I've been looking at this line which is mentioned as being "extracted from Shakespeare":

"...greene willow shalbe my gardlande"

image.thumb.png.80634e5cf76a24dc69316e2b346f0fc2.png

It is from Othello:

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/Bran_F1/841/index.html%3fzoom=1200.html

Page 333

image.png.18452b7bfa940b572961323568359b8f.png

The phrase is from a "The Willow Song" that is recorded in 1583. I don't see it in the Quarto I version of Othello, but it is in the First Folio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_song

 

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This is the list I am working with as far as the poems:

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Add_MS_22601&index=11

A series of poems by John Davies most likely, number 5 regarding Law and Davies became a lawyer and was a friend of Bacon:

image.png.f1e512e75ff3806dbf48f79affbcb65c.png

image.thumb.png.2d86c6c6e3a319868d09a6ebdbbc15ef.png

I don't believe there is a Bacon cipher, but possibly Bacon was an influence on him.

https://sirbacon.org/johndavies.htm

https://sirbacon.org/coflorio.htm

https://sirbacon.org/shakespearecircle.htm

Bacon, the 'Shakespeare' Leader of Poets and Writers

Francis Bacon was reported as writing plays for the stage with his brother Anthony, and as using comedy and tragedy to rescue and renew Philosophy. He was referred to as a secret poet and the leader of the choir of Muses and their disciples, the writers and poets. He was a close friend of Essex and his circle, and was referred to as both Apollo and Pallas Athena, the 'Spear-Shaker' or 'Shake-Spear'. Together with his brother, he headed a literary studio of 'good pens' who included, amongst others, the poets Ben Jonson, John Lyly, John Florio, John Davies of Hereford, Sir John Davies, George Herbert and George Wither. Ben Jonson is considered to have been the primary person responsible for the introductory pages to the Shakespeare Folio.

https://sirbacon.org/btheobaldenterchv.htm

Another important witness is John Davies of Hereford, seeing that he was at one time in Bacon's employ as an amanuensis, being by profession a teacher of calligraphy. He wrote a sonnet to Bacon, and referred to his association with the Muses, saying :

                    ....."and, dost use

                Her company for sport twixt grave affaires :
                So utter'st Law the livelyer through thy Muse," etc.

Naturally Davies only appears to give the impression that Bacon wrote poetry "for sport." He would not dare to say more. But even so, there is the distinct statement that he did write poetry.

https://sirbacon.org/links/macbeth.htm

It was Bacon, however, who aimed to please James, and who when John Davies went to Scotland in 1603 to meet the new King of England, wrote his friend to put in a good word for him, and expressed the hope, in closing that he ( Davies) would be"good to concealed poets." That is, in expressing a desire to please the king, Bacon at the same time reminded his friend that he was "a concealed poet." Had the philosopher already made mental plans to write Macbeth?

But take a peek at the first poem assumed to be Davies, the "Courtier 1":

image.thumb.png.3ae30a1ff2f4566f1d09225ffd99c959.png

OK, nice poem. But notice the top of the page:

Let there be time to worke his overthrowe

  Let there by tyme y(t) none his name may know

Then truth & time shall live an end to see

  of him and his that hath disnonor'd mee.

Same handwriting as Davies, or whoever transcribed these poems. But one needs to go back and read a few pages and there may be some ciphers (page f.38v):

image.png.c353cc485f3969b6bac02c186f994728.png

Page f.39r:

image.thumb.png.c274759f8821a560b3293816e21e2714.png

These are just a couple clips, but I am seeing more. But so far still over my head, but enough to seem important. Link, but I can't link the page unfortunately:

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_22601_fs001r

I'm reading backwards, which I tend to do. But use the dropdown link at the top right and start around maybe f.37r or so.

Help me out. 🙂

 

 

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I should be in bed, but obsessing on this.

Obvious cipher, see the hand pointing at "Lines" (Lines of everlastinge memorie), and a series of numbers? This poem does go on for a couple pages or so, but not sure if it was transcribed or written for these pages. Either way I will try to type the poem into Word tomorrow maybe and count the lines to see if there is a cipher here to decrypt.

image.png.c353cc485f3969b6bac02c186f994728.png

Same poem down (bolding is mine and translated best I can):

For thy pure minde doth well it selfe unfolde
that it discende from true Nobilitie
True noble minds do yeld truw noble deede
but base bred-thoughts, nought els but baseness breedes

And if Eliza, had byn furnished,
with none but suche attendants as they self;
His fame then had not byn diminished
by suche as did attend for nought but pelfe
God graunt he yt succeeds may well peruse him
and free him selfe of suche as did abuse him

image.thumb.png.c274759f8821a560b3293816e21e2714.png

If this is to or about Bacon, it is very important. There is a cipher and a finger with an arrow is pointing, then numbers.

Read the entire poem as there is more, but my little brain is worn out and full from today. 🙂

 

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2 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I should be in bed, but obsessing on this.

Obvious cipher, see the hand pointing at "Lines" (Lines of everlastinge memorie), and a series of numbers? This poem does go on for a couple pages or so, but not sure if it was transcribed or written for these pages. Either way I will try to type the poem into Word tomorrow maybe and count the lines to see if there is a cipher here to decrypt.

image.png.c353cc485f3969b6bac02c186f994728.png

Same poem down (bolding is mine and translated best I can):

For thy pure minde doth well it selfe unfolde
that it discende from true Nobilitie
True noble minds do yeld truw noble deede
but base bred-thoughts, nought els but baseness breedes

And if Eliza, had byn furnished,
with none but suche attendants as they self;
His fame then had not byn diminished
by suche as did attend for nought but pelfe
God graunt he yt succeeds may well peruse him
and free him selfe of suche as did abuse him

image.thumb.png.c274759f8821a560b3293816e21e2714.png

If this is to or about Bacon, it is very important. There is a cipher and a finger with an arrow is pointing, then numbers.

Read the entire poem as there is more, but my little brain is worn out and full from today. 🙂

 

Great finding Rob !  The fact is that my little brain is worn out too , full from yesterday, and I also lack of sleep thanks to Bacon !😄 Nevertheless, I will try to discover the secret of this cipher. I noticed that there is another hand with the same number 19 a few lines above.

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Here is the poem transcribed (below).

The part that begins with "I yt once liu'd in Englands glorious Court" might be a different poem. The handwriting is the same, but there is extra space between the two sections.

I haven't figured out the meaning of the hands and numbers yet, but the poem is pretty overt in talking about the Queen and her Prince, and definitely refers to her being deceased.

Also I attached a Word document with Line numbers for ease.

 

0 thou prodigious monster moste accurst
 what makes thou here in mens societie
Back to those desarts where you hast byn nurst
 by bruitish Beastes of rudest qualitie
   And yet in wildest desart Beasts are borne
   whose natures do yi beastlike natr scome.

And they (I thinke) together haue conspir'd
 to hunt thee out of y' their habitacion
 Because they fear'd, thou wouldst haue my requir.
   to harken to thy hatefull education
      If so, they much deseru'd to be commended
      who from y' selfe, haue so themselues defende

But if of beastes you hast byn thus reiected
 why shouldst thou hope of men to b’rintertaine
0h thou dost know mens thoughts are all infected
& some whose natures (worse then beasts) are stain
  So stained natures certaine hope doth gaine ye,
    though beasts reiect yee, men will intertaine them

And sure I see thou hast not misconceiued
 for thou hast found such as you thoughtst to finde
 who beare ye forme of men, but are bereau'd
   of all good properties of humane kinde.
 Thus hast you thought moste fitt to beare yi name
  wht is ingratitude reprochefull shame.

Wild bold fac'd Beast, why shamst you not to dwell
 in this our Region of the vpper earth
 Avaunt for shame, post downe to deepest hell
 wcb h is ye place of thy vnhappy birthe
   There foule obliuion (as he doth confess
   begatt thee, no, yt hagg vnthankfulness.

Thou maist reply, that I haue ye misus'd
 by taxinge thee, before you giust me cause.
 I must confess thou hast not me abus'd
  but thou hast violat'd those sacred lawes
    of humane nature, due obedience
    & therefore would I driue yee downe from hence

If thou couldst haue containd y' wretched wrong
 in compass of y' vulgar sorte of men!
 I had not searcht into yt thrustinge throng
   thus to detest thee with my rurall pen.
     But thou dost deale more perfidiously
     in wronging hir whose fault shall neur dy

Dread sacred lady my late soueraigne Quene,
 tis yi great worth yis worthles wretch would blott
 whose like was neuer, nor shall ere be seene
   great shame therefore y" art so soone forgott
     yet shalt thou neuer be forgot of mee
     though such forgett Yee, as were rais'd by thee.

Though suche forget yee, as were rais'd by thee
yet will thy vertues rare themselues prserue,
 And those ýt can discern what vertues bee
 will giue thee truly yt thou didst deserue
   But suche as seru'd for nought but priuate gaine-
   did shew yew mindes, when you didst cease to raigne

They serued yee but to serue themselues by thee
 yet when thou didst suruiue they did adore yee
  But since thou didst deceass, I can nott see
  yt any of thes, now daignes to deplore thee
    Suche misery on Princes Iyues attend
    yt whilst they Live, ye cannot know their frend

And thou great Princess hadst of theis yi share
 els had thy glory passed (in theas Lighte
For in yi minde were placed vertues rare
 yet ill aduise did some times dym yi sighte
   This proofe therefore vpon thy life depend
   that flatterers cannott be Princes frend.

If this be graunted, then inferr we may
 the nomber of thy frends was very small
Though nombers did attend yee day by day
 thou hardly hadst a frend amongst ym all
   for as they fedd thee then with flattery
   they now forgett Yee moste vngratefully

Yet one there is which on thee did attend
 whose minde immaculate doth well retaine
  The Duties both of Seruannt & of frend
  wc3 she professed, when you here didst raigne
    That beast ingratitude canot infect him
    for true religious zeale doth safe protect him.

Thrice honored Theana thou art she
whose modesty hath wonne immortall fame
Thou honorest deceassed Soueraigntie
 and therefore dost deserue an honor'd name
   for when she liu'd, you chastly didst attend hir
   & being dead, you chastely didst defend hir.

Thy noble name, of right should be inrold
 in lines of euerlastinge memorie
For thy pure minde doth well it selfe vnfold
 that it discenclefr om true Nobilitie
   True noble mindes do yeld true noble deede
   but base bred thoughts, nought els but basenes breedes

And if Eliza, had byn funished
 With none but suche attendants as thy selfe:
 Hir fame then had not byn diminished
   by suche as did attend for nought but pelfe
      God graunt he yt succeedes may well peruse him
      and free himselfe of suche as did abuse him

I yt once liu'd in Englands glorious Court
 Lou'd & obseru'd by men of greatest sort
my life was pure, my thoughts were voide from sin
 this happie state longe time I Lived in I
Till othes & praye & faithless mens vntruth
 with vowes & sighes & teares betray'd my youth

Those fainned showes those false seducinge euills
 seeminge like Gods, in profe farr worse then deuills
  Banisht suspect & then my loue grew suche
  him before all I honor'd more then muche.
saintlike

What life so chaste, or who is she wi'h standes
 when likinge conquers, and where loue commandes.
In vaine we striue gainst loues powe' to resist
 once intertain'd, it Conquers where it list
 with many othes he vow'd his faith to me
 & sweare y' fault vpon his soule should be
 which made me bold quickly to giue consent
 mine be ye fault and his the punishmt.

But neuer had such faith so ill regarde
 nor constant loue With falshood suche rewarde.
 now sweeter euenge,if euer womans teares
 whose sad lamts whose life in sorrow weares
Could euer moue thee iust reuenge to take
 Then heare my wronges, my griefs, & for my sake
 Deuise somme torture worse then paines of hell
Wherein his Soule perpetually may dwell.

And pretious Time y' righter of all wrongs
and Truth ý knowes to falshood what belongs.
I coniure you vppon yod faith & worthe
 his Periury to all the world lay forthe.
That none may blush to reade his foule amis
 that hath betraid poore Innocenty this.

Let there be tyme to tume his mirth to woe
 let there be time to make his frend his foe
Let there be time to worke his ouerthrowe
 Let there be tyme yt none his name may know
 Then truth & time shall liue an end to see
 of him and his that hath dishonor'd mee.

0 thou prodigious monster moste accurst.docx

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2 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Here is the poem transcribed (below).

The part that begins with "I yt once liu'd in Englands glorious Court" might be a different poem. The handwriting is the same, but there is extra space between the two sections.

I haven't figured out the meaning of the hands and numbers yet, but the poem is pretty overt in talking about the Queen and her Prince, and definitely refers to her being deceased.

Also I attached a Word document with Line numbers for ease.

0 thou prodigious monster moste accurst.docx 16.99 kB · 0 downloads

You have been on the go !!! Thank you for the transcription !

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1 hour ago, Allisnum2er said:

You have been on the go !!! Thank you for the transcription !

One may end up adjusting some of the text when comparing to the facsimile. It is hard sometimes to read it properly with its Elizabethan handwriting. So if you do work on, double check the images for accuracy.

Here is a simple start and a few notes below the image:

image.thumb.png.b40192164a893479e364118a79fae077.png

I've been studying this poem for two days now, it is veiled yet with a definite message. The handwriting is not like any I've seen by Bacon. However, the poem may have been copied by somebody for the manuscripts. It was in King James's collection. Since the poems that follow appear to be by Sir John Davies, and the handwriting is the same, it could possibly be by him. He was one of Bacon's "good pens" and they were in the same circle.

If this was by Davies, to or about Bacon, then what is he saying?

"O thou prodigious monster moste accurst"

Of course we've heard what Tobey Matthew said about Bacon, "The most prodigious wit, that ever I knew of my nation, and of this side of the sea, is of your Lordship's name, though he be known by another."

So perhaps Davies was playing with Bacon, a tease. Then he goes on to say he was "nurst by brutish Beasts of rudest qualitie."

The poem starts out along this theme that whoever he is talking to was a Beast. I think that may refer to the name "Bacon, being a Boar" on one level, but also about being born a commoner, not Royal.

But if of beastes you hast byn thus reiected
 why shouldst thou hope of men to b’ intertaind

So if he was rejected, by the Queen, why should he hope to Royal, a Prince?

Wild bold fac'd Beast, why shamst you not to dwell
 in this our Region of the vpper earth

You boar, Bacon, you beast, why "shamst" (hint of Shakespeare?) you not to hang out in the Royal upper society? 😉

Line 33, "I must confess thou hast not me abus'd" So all the teasing of being a Beast, even a prodigious monster, Davies confesses that Bacon has not "abus'd" him. Lines 13 to 33 also frame the acrostic "B A WTI con" or Bacon, William Tudor I.

There are 35 words between "Back" and "conspir'd" in the BAcon acrostic in lines 3 and 7. If we remove the two in parenthesis, that leaves 33 words, Bacon in Simple cipher.

There are 183 words before "name" in Line 23. ONE EIGHTY THREE is 157 Simple and 365 Kaye ciphers, just to throw that out there.

So just a start, The rest of the poem gets more interesting.

 

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Rob, I think that you have definitively find something great and that you are on the right path.

I had notice this morning when I opened your .doc the line 33 with "I must confess thou hast not me abus'd"

And you say "You boar, Bacon, you beast, why "shamst" (hint of Shakespeare?) you not to hang out in the Royal upper society?"

Then "There are 35 words between "Back" and "conspir'd" in the BAcon acrostic in lines 3 and 7. If we remove the two in parenthesis, that leaves 33 words, Bacon in Simple cipher."

What if "Beast" was the key ?

0 thou prodigious monster moste accurst
 what  makes thou here in mens societie
Back to those desarts where you hast byn nurst
 by bruitish Beastes of rudest qualitie
      And yet in wildest desart Beasts are borne
      whose natures do yi beastlike natr scome.

And they (I thinke) together haue conspir'd
 to hunt thee out of y' their habitacion
 Because they fear'd, thou wouldst haue my requir.
   to harken to thy hatefull education
      If so, they much deseru'd to be commended
      who from y' selfe, haue so themselues defende

 

By counting from Back , the first "Beastes" is the 12th word and the second "Beasts" is the 21st world"

12+21 = 33 the simple cipher of Bacon and it remains, between Back and conspir'd, 33 words (I thinke) 😉 

And I think that we can exclude "beastlike" . But even if we take him in count, as this is the 28th word :

12+21+28=61 the simple count of JANUS ! 😄

Moreover, you say :Of course we've heard what Tobey Matthew said about Bacon, "The most prodigious wit, that ever I knew of my nation, and of this side of the sea, is of your Lordship's name, though he be known by another."

"The most prodigious wit"

 

0 thou prodigious monster moste accurst
 what  makes thou here in mens societie
Back to those desarts where you hast byn nurst
 by bruitish Beastes of rudest qualitie
      And yet in wildest desart Beasts are borne
      whose natures do yi beastlike natr scome.

And they (I thinke) together haue conspir'd
 to hunt thee out of y' their habitacion
 Because they fear'd, thou wouldst haue my requir.
   to harken to thy hatefull education                                 line 10
      If so, they much deseru'd to be commended              line 11
      who from y' selfe, haue so themselues defende         line 12

10 +11 +12 = 33 the simple cipher of BACON.

Becon's Wit

Bacon uses the same subterfuge  with the "Janus signature" on page 163 of the First Folio. 🙂 

Is the Beast a Boar or a Bat ? ( Reference to  Melencolia I

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OK, a "Twist" to my theory.

As a Baconian, I need to be open to being wrong. It is not uncommon, but my theory of Davies writing to Bacon might be wrong. I have to be open to new clues, be able to change direction, even when I am off-base in a direction that appears to be, well wrong. I think I am wrong.

Allisnum2er said, "What if "Beast" was the key ? "

Admiring his work and insight, (Maestro Yann), I pursued.

Shakespeare: Pretty much any reference to anything "Beast" is about animals, beasts not men.

Bacon: Pretty much any reference to anything "Beast" is about animals, beasts not men.

OK, what else. A search on SirBacon.org which is the best research tool available, even when Google gave me nothing much to work with, gave me the following:

https://sirbacon.org/oxfordallswell.htm

This was Mistress Anne Vavasour. In a letter dated Jan.19, 1585 from Thomas Vavasour, her brother, challenging Oxford to a duel, wrote --

"If thy body had been as deformed as thy mind is dishournable, my house had yet unspotted, and thyself remained with thy cowardice unknown." From other sources we read that "the world never brought forth such a villainous monster.....a beast in all respects, and in him no virtue to be found, and no vice wanting."

Arundel wrote of the "horrible enormities, great beastliness, detestable vices and impure life of this earl, and said that

"....to report at large all the vices of this monstrous earl were a labour without end," which could not be rebutted. "He has lost all credit and honour and has been abandoned by all his friends and by all the ladies of the Court. Finding himself alone and unsupported, he threw himself on his knees several times before the Queen."

The poem?

0 thou prodigious monster moste accurst
 what makes thou here in mens societie

Back to those desarts where you hast byn nurst
 by bruitish Beastes of rudest qualitie
   And yet in wildest desart Beasts are borne
   whose natures do yi beastlike natr scorne.

I see Bacon acrostics, even on Line 33 (see Forum thread), but now have to rethink my direction. Maybe this was Davies or Bacon writing to Oxfart. I will try to see what was Davies relationship was with DeVere,

Arundel I already found to be a friend of Bacon.

I shared with Lawrence, my mentor and guru, and he sent me a note and link to this book:

Berkeley Prof Alan Nelson who wrote a crushing book on Devere : My Monstrous Adversary https://www.google.com/books/edition/Monstrous_Adversary/WcfiqlOjEKoC?hl=en

OK, I see Bacon hints, as I posted before, and more farther down the poem. Queen Elizabeth comes up, her being deceased, "succession" is hinted. But a man who is a Beast might be DeVere?

I need to study this more, and is likely my task alone. Thank you to Allisnum2er for chiming in, and I appreciate your vision and anyone is welcome to take interest of course. But my initial theory that Davies wrote this to or about Bacon is somewhat shattered at the moment. Did Bacon write this to DeVere? But the timing is off, unless he wrote it after both were dead.

How did King James get it?

When was it written?

Who wrote it?

It is a powerful poem, could get one's head cut off back then in the wrong time. But somebody wrote it. Mentions "Eliza" by name.

So far the ONLY monster or Beast who was human back then in literature I can find was DeVere. I am having to be as much of a Baconian as I am able, far from being a perfect Baconian. The references to and about DeVere are too much for me to dismiss. As are the hints of Bacon in this poem.

The mystery of this poem is wide open...

 

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9 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

It is a powerful poem, could get one's head cut off back then in the wrong time. But somebody wrote it. Mentions "Eliza" by name.

So far the ONLY monster or Beast who was human back then in literature I can find was DeVere. I am having to be as much of a Baconian as I am able, far from being a perfect Baconian. The references to and about DeVere are too much for me to dismiss. As are the hints of Bacon in this poem.

Well done, Rob ! That is a very good point !!!! 👍

 

Thy noble name, of right should be inrold
 in lines of euerlastinge memorie
For thy pure minde doth well it selfe vnfold
 that it discenclefr om true Nobilitie
   True noble mindes do yeld true noble deede
   but base bred thoughts, nought els but basenes breedes

And if Eliza, had byn funished
 With none but suche attendants as thy selfe:
 Hir fame then had not byn diminished
   by suche as did attend for nought but pelfe
      God graunt he yt succeedes may well peruse him
      and free himselfe of suche as did abuse him.

Edward DeVere 's motto was "Vero Nihil Verius"  - Nothing Truer than Truth 😉 

 

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On 4/2/2022 at 10:32 AM, Kate Cassidy said:

Can you possibly share the link to where this is? Many thanks 

A79F72C9-5017-4D75-8021-7155E707D061.png.5789a847369e32e2701e2ff79cdd4cb1.png

This probably needs  to be moved from 'Oxford - For or against' topic but I don't know how to do that.

I looked at this book and read it from cover to cover. Thanks for the link. Dee's marginalia shows up in a few places, so I took a closer look and I don't think it is things he has added while reading, I think he wrote some, if not all of this book, even though pages are attributed to other authors. Here's why in 3 images, with notes written on them by me.

1364476429_DeesMarginaliaandFlourishes.thumb.png.02023d84bebedc089d8870e7fca950c8.png

1413573263_DeeandBritishLibraryanonymousbook.thumb.png.b59df3c02f951fb4f8ea818527b1edfe.png

So the left page is definitely Dee, the right is the anonymous book.

Finally I spotted this

74355762_JohnDeeSignaturesandShake.thumb.png.fcdd9f69dc121b7cc2ba1cd678c2853b.png

 

It's easy to quickly dismiss that this could be Dee until you look at all the examples online of his writing (some of which are above). The samples show he switched between incredibly neat and messy and his D's g's and f's  constantly switch tails.  To my mind it is the drawings of the pointing hands and the spirals which appear on around 4-6 separate pages that make me think this is fully or partially written by Dee - despite the attributions by the British Library (ultimately it does say it's anonymous though). The flourishes on the N and K's and R's may have been popular at the time but they are almost identical in angles, pressure etc.

 

What do you think of the Shake Singleton reference?

 

K

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There is someone's interpretation of "0 thou prodigious monster moste accurst" here starting on page 35:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/30695702.pdf

"Shake Singleton" is mentioned on page 39.

The woman who turns Singleton's ballad against him is standing up for the 'Westerne ladds' against
Singleton's 'Suffolk weessells' and ends by daring him to write again: 'And so good
Singleton go hang I if thou wilt not a due'. Written underneath, by way of further insult
to Singleton, is 'by me Shake Singleton. And dare to be sold at the signe of The shipp
called ye quittance,' followed by:

0 let not passonelessshame
vnto the first beginner
for shehathbyn andshewilbe
a fallinge pleasantsinner.
fire neweandyefirst mintage.

 

Might be some good info in this PDF. Bacon is mentioned 35 times sometimes as having credit for an anonymous work in the manuscript.

 

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My eyesight is suffering. Since this forum started I have never read so may books in quick succession! That document is a book in itself. Thanks for sharing.

I skimmed the second half but it's clear the author is putting the best available guesses together. I am even more convinced it was a book belonging to Dee now, having read this. I think it's possible it was all written or copied by Dee. 

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Posted (edited)

I read quite a bit last night too! I'm not a good reader, too many years reading backwards, up, down, and across with numbers in my head. But she put a lot of work into it. I agree she is seeing from a traditional scholarly viewpoint limited by walls of academia. This is what she says about the handwriting. Unfortunately this pdf does not copy/paste well.

image.thumb.png.84d643d95d3786db27e5bce52dd8da97.png

She does state it (the manuscript) was arranged and meant to be read in order to understand the complete picture as it was put together for King James. Her argument sounds pretty solid.

Here is volume 2 of her same work:

https://qmro.qmul.ac.uk/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/1617/REARDONTheManuscript2007_VOL2.pdf?sequence=2

 

Edited by Light-of-Truth
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Ah ha! I may have to retract that, just found this 

image.png.99eba0e2755aa1b6362cf54722bf1907.png

I'm currently reading the whole thing at

http://www.livesandletters.ac.uk/papers/FOR_2005_04_001.pdf

It's called a Manicule

I'll let you know if I find anything really interesting. He's already said he first came across it with John Dee, but soon realised it was quite widely used., and decided to research and write about it/them.

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Kate, what have you seen as far as Oxenguy using hand drawn hands? Going back a ways in this thread, but I am intrigued.

I understand they are a "print" thing, I'm an old school marketing pro, I even remember actually cutting and pasting with glue onto pages for print even into the early 80's. Yet I feel like some of what we are seeing is not about a paragraph break, but actually pointing at something.

The paper you linked expresses the "index" finger, but this week I've seen the middle "bird" finger hand drawn in my poking around. 🙂

 

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18 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Kate, what have you seen as far as Oxenguy using hand drawn hands? Going back a ways in this thread, but I am intrigued.

I understand they are a "print" thing, I'm an old school marketing pro, I even remember actually cutting and pasting with glue onto pages for print even into the early 80's. Yet I feel like some of what we are seeing is not about a paragraph break, but actually pointing at something.

The paper you linked expresses the "index" finger, but this week I've seen the middle "bird" finger hand drawn in my poking around. 🙂

 

Hi

I’ll respond to this tomorrow as I never finished that paper as I got waylaid by one on manicules from Atlas Obscura (see my tweet on it yesterday - I’ll put the link here too later) and then I got into re-reading AP’s “Did Bacon die in 1626”. I’m bog-eyed!

However, I am replying now as I’ve just read an old post, way up above, that I missed. In fact I missed lots.  It is querying the handwriting in the MS 22601.

I spent hours  ( 🤫) comparing the handwriting to Dee’s known handwriting over many years and saw numerous  similarities. One thing I noticed repeatedly though, which didn’t fit anything of Dee’s that I could find, was this D. It’s unmistakable and was seen throughout. It’s as if the stem is slightly s-like. Hope it is not too blurry. 
 

If we can find who else writes with D’s like this, we have the author! 

A162BEFE-0B85-4F34-B2E4-A3EF31A02865.jpeg
 

This is much clearer2E79AC8F-29BF-468B-9265-030DAA60322E.jpeg.94dc1a3428e2886fc304e8782082b1b0.jpeg 

Edited by Kate Cassidy
Typo and add pic
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MANICULES

Hi

I said I’d get back to you about this. I’ve finished it - with myriad side trips to look at other things that were referenced.  As I mentioned before, they were common for hundreds of years before Dee.
 

It says “The manicule has a gestural function that extends beyond its straightforwardly indexical.  In Francis Bacon’s typically suggestive phrase, gestures are “transient hieroglyphics”: they have a live and passing quality that has led Jean-Claude Schmitt to lament the fact that “Gestures, like words, belong to an ephemeral world.”

It also says “Bulwer realized that his hand-symbols could also prove useful wherever people needed to communicate secretly (and remember that Bulwer’s books ...his visual key to gestures involving the fingers was “ordered to serve for privy cyphers for any secret intimation” (Chirologia 188).”

And

 “There are fingers being used as calculators and calendars, as companions to singing and speaking, as aids to memory and prompts for meditation, as maps of mortal fortune and emblems of divine truth—every kind of textual finger, in fact, except the good old marginal pointer”. So I guess two different gestures in manicules could also be a way of writing FB or other code, if each can represent a letter in the alphabet.

There’s a massive reading list at the end that I can’t hope to get through, but it’s all fascinating. Here’s the link again 

http://www.livesandletters.ac.uk/papers/FOR_2005_04_001.pdf

Kate 

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