Grandmasters of England

[A Phoenix]

The designer and architect of the Baconian-Rosicrucian masques Inigo jones Grand Master of England.

[A Phoenix]

Lord Bacon's kinsman and disciple Henry Jermyn, Earl of St Albans, Grand Master of England.

[Kate]

Ah ha! Hence Jermyn Street  I assume? 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Kate Cassidy

[A Phoenix]

Hi Kate,

You are, or course, correct.

[Eric Roberts]

1 hour ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

What was Jones Grandmaster of? My understanding is that there are no recognized Masonic groups between the operative and speculative ones. This would presumably be an English group. There's a single passing mention of a group called the Acception in London in the early 17th century which is made up of men who aren't part of any operative group/tradition but are similarly structured.  It is surmised by some that the name entered Freemasonry later with the use of the qualifier "accepted Masons". The word is a novelty in the English language for the time. The suggested etymology is from the meaning of Kabbalah in English which is "reception". One can tie that to the legends about the origin of the operative groups which speak of an influence from Spanish Kabbalists. Is there anything tying Jones to the Acception? It may be just a stop in an evolution of groups that will take on creative names borrowing from legends. Are we talking about something informed from the operative groups in Scotland or the German mystic ones that are sourcing their ideas in other places like the ideas of Jacob Boehme? 

The Rosicrucian Enlightenment, Frances A Yates, p. 217

[Eric Roberts]

https://www.quatuorcoronati.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/QCA_VOL-6.pdf

THE INIGO JONES MANUSCRIPT

[Allisnum2er]

Hi Eric,

Once again thank you for sharing !!! 🙏❤️

Did you notice the White "A" and the Black "A" of "And Accepted" ?

This is clearly a reference to the AA Emblem.

And the lettering of the first A is different to the lettering of the second one.

It looks like a way to transform the first  letter "A" into a letter "B" allowing to have "BACO" in acrostic.

And with th Fr of Free (meaning Franc, Francis) we have FR. BACO !😊

 

[Eric Roberts]

41 minutes ago, Allisnum2er said:

Hi Eric,

Once again thank you for sharing !!! 🙏❤️

Did you notice the White "A" and the Black "A" of "And Accepted" ?

This is clearly a reference to the AA Emblem.

And the lettering of the first A is different to the lettering of the second one.

It looks like a way to transform the first  letter "A" into a letter "B" allowing to have "BACO" in acrostic.

And with th Fr of Free (meaning Franc, Francis) we have FR. BACO !😊

 

Hi Yann. Thank you for pointing out the two capital "A"s which had escaped me. 

[A Phoenix]

Francis Bacon Secret Founding Father of the Modern Speculative Freemasonry Brotherhood & Inigo Jones Grand Master & Deputy Grand Master of England from 1603-1652

#FrancisBacon #Rosicrucians #Freemasonry #InigoJones #Anagrams 

[A Phoenix]

ROYALCRAFTINESS said:

'Bacon himself was once asked what he thought of German Rosicrucianism, and he opined that he liked some of it and not other parts of it.' 

Could you please provide your source for the above statement.

[Rob at 007]

5 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

I'm new here and I'm wondering about the freedom to publish information which is speculative and not declaring it.

Welcome to the B'Hive RoyalCraftiness!

Please be sure to read the basic rules we have here. 

https://sirbacon.org/bacon-forum/index.php?/forum/5-please-read-welcome-to-sirbaconorgs-bhive-community/

The B'Hive is a forum for Baconians which includes a very wide range of ideas and personalities. I'm posting this as the Web Developer and a Moderator of the forum. My day-to-day posting is with the Light-of-Truth profile. 

If you hang out here a while you'll see the variety of how we think and share. I'm a mathematical cipher guy, and welcome hard questions and answer from where I am thinking. Others are considered more scholarly and will provide references to back up what they present. I don't feel like anybody is opposed to hard questions, and that is a way to back up what one claims.

We have become a community and we hope to see it grow. The key is respect, even if one does not agree with another, we smile and move on sharing our own minds in an enjoyable dialog learning from each other. It has been wonderful.

You appear to come with some Masonic background and knowledge. It's not required yet (even though a discussion between Lawrence, the owner of SirBacon.org, and myself), but an intro allows your readers to get a glimpse of who you are. Hope you consider writing one.

https://sirbacon.org/bacon-forum/index.php?/forum/18-bhive-member-introductions/

I'm curious who you are as you come in strong with substance and opinions. 🙂

As far as "freedom to publish information which is speculative and not declaring it", as Baconians we have many theories, opinions, ideas, and personal experiences that may be totally unique to ourselves as individuals, and this is a place to freely share. Sometimes we participants on the B'Hive read and do not post on a discussion that is not of our interest, and at times we kick around ideas as if we are Bacon, Jonson, and others drinking and eating whatever they were indulging in laughing and carrying on. 

SPAM, hateful or mean attacks, or obvious trolling will not be tolerated. Thankfully it has been rare when that has been an issue. 🙂

Look forward to you being a part of this historic platform!

Rob at 007

 

 

[Eric Roberts]

5 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

I'm new here and I'm wondering about the freedom to publish information which is speculative and not declaring it. The Inigo Jones document is not known to have been written by Jones. Some allege he wrote it, but these voices cannot back the assertion to the satisfaction required. That's what I would say.  The date of it is a suggestion and cannot be ascertained. It first appeared in the late Victorian period at a time when lodges like the Quatuor Coronati were engaging in specific efforts to trace any origins of Freemasonry prior to the time of the Grand Lodge. No one knows where it comes from (no original provenance). It has no extant copies.  If it represents Masonic charges then it should somehow be informed by existing charges in Scotland in operative lodges which are passing on a tradition. Freemasons don't today take it as proof of any direct lineage. It does, however support a narrative for some.

The time we are talking about is a time when the first non operative groups would have appeared outside of Scotland if anything bridged operative and speculative branches to link them. I mentioned the Acception, because it appears as a sole mention of a name for a group in this early time. It is unclear to what degree the charges in the Inigo Jones document are informing themselves from what is already existing and slowly fading away in the operative tradition elsewhere. We can ask: What group is raising Jones to Grandmaster and where does the title come from?" Who are the purveyors of such titles?

Jones is most certainly associated with architecture and reviving the Vitruvian tradition in England. We have to be careful when we state that, though, because the Vitruvian tradition is itself related to what some call the Royal Craft in operative Masonry. The Royal Craft can be seen as the empirical/geometric knowledge of the craft of Masonry. Figuratively this is related to us as part of the Holy Royal Arch later. The arch here is speaking to the structure of the organization that is maintaining the tradition (sturdy, well organized and solid as a great arch). It is Holy because legends in Scotland would trace it either to Saxon Kings at York or to Noahs Ark through King Solomon and the Hebraic tradition, but there are more than a few speculations here about origins. Links to Spanish Kabbalists are other ideas. The empirical part we recognize as being the geometry of the Greeks which was also employed by Vitruvius. The preferences for natural proportion and ratios in Vitruvian design is in the Royal Craft where the primacy of the ratio 2:1, 3:1 and 3:2 as geometric building blocks is being passed as knowledge. We can work it back to the cult on number of the Pythagoreans in that culture. From there you can go to Plato, to Solon and into Heliopolis in Egypt if you desire to retrace the concept of angle and geometric planning in the first appearance of stone Masonry.

Anyone with a quick eye will note that RC does not mean Rosicrucian or Rosy Cross if it is pointing to Royal Craft. Rosicrucianism is something that is in the German mystical tradition of Boehme and others. It's not a British invention. There are people who claim that Bacon was given the symbolic title of Imperator (father figure) of Rosicrucianism by Michael Maier when he visited England. They had a fondness for him. Bacon himself was once asked what he thought of German Rosicrucianism, and he opined that he liked some of it and not other parts of it. That's not hard to believe, coming from an scientific mind. The empirical part of the "thing" promoted would have pleased him (the high allegory, not so much).The thing further gets complicated by the fact that the Quatuor Coronati recognizes the existence of theories that allege that the operative Freemasony in Scotland is Germanic in origin. To say that this it is unclear to Freemasons what their roots are is not an exaggeration. There is in almost all cultures where Freemasonry is found an origin story that links it to that cultures' s lore. The Scottish rite in Freemasonry today, for example is based in ideas produced in France about legendary lineages there going to the Templar Knights. None of these suggestions are proven, and most are certainly pure legend.

I detect a desire by some to want to equate operative Freemasonry, and possibly early non-operative Freemasonry to Rosicrucianism. I don't see them flowing out of the same places. It is fairer to say that there is a template for brethrens which existed which took off in use in different places. All groups are unsure of their lineages and all have a mythology about that. There may be a kinship in ideas about an origin with a Hebrew/Christian God, but that is not enough to say that things are equal.

Inigo Jones did write Masques and was associated with Ben Johnson and the theater. It makes him out to be an excellent candidate for an influence in the crafting of stories that act as backdrops for things we struggle to sort out. 

My approach is to be very analytical. If we cannot today understand how things came to be then I feel we should not be afraid to state that. There's no shame in that. This would not be the case if we were interested in forming a speculative fraternity of our own. In that case we could just lay out a narrative and maintain it was the gospel, or part of our charges.

Hi R.C.

Welcome to the SirBacon B'Hive forum. Your assertions, though unsourced, are clearly based on a lot of knowledge of the subject of Freemasonry, etc. and present a challenge to uninitiated folk such as myself - in a good way. Re: the 1895 facsimile published by the "Lodge Quatuor Coronati, No. 2076, London" of the so-called "Inigo Jones Manuscript", the notes in the "Introduction" which follows the facsimile of the document point out that Inigo Jones died two years before the earliest possible date of publication, 1655. I didn't feel it was necessary to flag the introduction, as I was confident that members of this forum would soon discover them and form their own opinions.

For the sake of clarity, here are the notes to the relevant section of the folio:

 

https://www.quatuorcoronati.com

Just a question - as the discussion and research here is centred on Sir Francis Bacon, would you like to share any thoughts you have about his life and achievements?

[Rob at 007]

18 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

Thank you. I have read a lot of the content while waiting to be given access to commenting.

I want to personally apologize for not allowing access for so long. A couple months ago we did have an issue and we had to secure the membership immediately. I thought I set it up so we would be notified when someone new signed up. But that did not happen. 

I went in the Membership Admin a few days ago and discovered maybe a dozen new valid seekers had signed up and they were missed. I allowed all but one obvious SPAM email address, all while being horrified these visitors might never return. I'd fire myself, but I can't really do that! I did learn my lesson and will check daily for new membership requests.

Thank you for reading content while being very patient and thank you for participating after being ignored.

 

 

[Light-of-Truth]

3 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

His life is really not known to me, or to anyone here. My thoughts about that would have to be informed by others, many of whom quote nothing but things they have interpreted. Various groups and persons have suggested things outside of what is documented history free from interpretation. I've read a great deal of it. Its something that, like you, I often have questions and reservations about. Bacon and I are similar in that we like to know why it is that we ought to know/accept anything. He looked for the root of the tree of ideas, I do to. I'm interested in his method of thinking, inductive reasoning, as a first step towards a scientific method later on. I'm puzzled by his extreme piety, by the fact he sunk much money into colonizing efforts (as a patron) in the New World to great detriment to any European ambition he may have had, that he worked ardently to devise ways to locate one's self on the Globe, that his contribution as an experimentalist is not that big compared to the scientific reputation he acquired. I'm interested in the relationships he may have had with Rosicrucians like Michael Maier and Robert Fludd. I'm curious about his relationship with the Tubingen school of Philosophers and with the German astronomers. I wonder about the influence of Jacob Bohme on him. Other things that make him interesting to a great many aren't as interesting to me, by I am aware of those. I have tried to understand if Bacon could have had a role in early non-operative "lodges" in England. There's so little to go by. It's like trying to map out crumbs.

On the matter of quoting people and sources, I feel that this may just as easily lead to some dangerous results, but it is generally the required place to start. It is easy to publish one's opinions today, to overstate a case and to have a multitude of similar sounding ideas be cross-referencing themselves. I am suspicious of people's agendas, generally. That's the case when I read today and when I read from the past. I hesitate to quote except to present a thing as an idea that is a current out there in the information sphere. But what are my ideas, if not the same thing? I will always overvalue my own ideas so be aware of that.  I have boxes of material here collected over the years and I even have a few manuscripts, but none are exclusively about Bacon. I will never publish them. I know from experience that my ideas have changed significantly over time, that the publishing of ideas that produce a certain acceptance in others cannot be walked back even if I have walked the idea back subsequently. In short I do not necessarily trust myself with what I think to put into the hands of others. This is the problem of what to know. A book of my feelings, although it would be fun to read, is something I know would be quickly cast aside by able critics.

There are things I will say that are built up from many areas that could be quoted, and the result may be that I would have to be the one quoted for the consolidation of them. For the most part, I approve in having ideas be put out in their raw form. Having you, or others, criticize them is of value to me, and it always refreshes the worry I have about the potentialities around suggesting things.

One of my philosophical areas of interest is how unconditional acceptance of any suggestion is possible in the human mind. There are ways to produce it, and that is important to understand for one to not be caught up in it. At this late age I fear i am growing more and more skeptical of myself all the time, and that is true of others. But I love to read and be presented with things as new suggestions. It's a cutting edge. 

I have some bad vibes about the teacher-student model of learning. The mystery school approach of initiating men into a train of thought strikes me as something that is a defensive strategy against losing the narrative for a desired way of thinking. I feel we are all co-explorers that are required to get each other up to snuff, but that is itself a great difficulty because people tend to build up hierarchies, discover the power in them, walk towards control and then one day towards tyranny. My views in such matters are Platonic. Control systems tend to go full circle when they start off in complete democratic openness. Bacon would tell us a thing or two about the difficulty of governing over men. Much of Shakespeare deals with it. Perhaps that is why he was a great hopeful in the area of thinking that suggests that men can be self policed only if they are guided from their God. All other attempts will cause them to resist.

Déjà vu big time.

I know that is a strange concept that is not understood. Remembering a moment that may not have happened? But feels so real.

I hit "Reply" and soon as I clicked it hit me just now powerfully, remembering from my future in the past. Deja vu, shiver up my spine, an uncontrollable grin on face, a huge question/exclamation mark in my brain. Whatever. Not what you said really, it was clicking the Reply on what you said. I assume this moment was to me working backwards and strong enough I remember it from my past, and you may have an explanation of how and why that could happen. For me it is this:

<--1881-->

Let's get real Mr. RoyalCraftiness (RC), clearly a super genius, highly educated on many levels, someone with importance, Freemason or Mason, spewing forth Knowledge that we touch on and tap into on the fly; whoever you are, or whatever club you represent as a team. For what it is worth, no matter what opinions and concerns other B'Hive members may or may not be feeling, to me you are NO JOKE. And I can only assume the timing of you sharing on this humble B'Hive forum is right on some point Bacon and Dee planned 400 years. Maybe with your help! 😉

You claim to not be a guru, you are not sharing secrets. Yet are like some kind of Ancient God of some name (Yann?, Kate?) flowing forth an Amazon river of Knowledge that in my 25 years of Baconian research have barely scratched. A. Phoenix, Peter Dawkins, so on have offered a wealth of Rosicrucian knowledge. What you put out is the kind of stuff I'd stumble on after a few hours of research without interruptions. (Oh the days I miss so much sometimes!!)

Alfred Dodd was my first Freemason teacher with his books. Countless hours, and then some, on the phone with Richard Wagner a Freemason who is a very respectable resource on Freemason symbology, legends, and Elizabethan history. Albert Pike touched me in a Deeper way, just reading random whatever I opened up on whatever day.

No pressure, but I would love to know who the F you are (Introductions)! 🙂

I doubt I am alone on that.

Regardless, I am enjoying your presence and feeding my mind with a shovel as fast as I can with most falling out of my head. As a reflection from outside of where you think, and as you mentioned in your post, I would imagine you are used to being a force in a small room and know how to adjust as needed once the dust settles. Not that I am saying you need to. Just your audience could be wider if you shared a tidbit at a time and we could play it them over time with your participation.

I am still obsessed with the ten circle triangle to 27! The pattern only goes up to 10, I found that out. But there is more math than you shared that is fun in those circles. And there is so much more in that one post!

Exciting Kate is back in, our Astrology/Astronomer resource, and Yann reading your posts as our Mythology/Ancient /various languages/etc. teacher. 

I've often wondered and mentioned in public that I feel A. Phoenix may be the voice of the living Rosicrucian Brotherhood. Maybe you are the Freemason voice. I don't know.

A few times I've met someone who becomes interested in Bacon because of my passion. I have learned to not overwhelm them with too many books or they lose interest. There are enough that I can pick specifically for who they are going to. usually Peter Dawkins covers the field, but not always. Dodd is also in the mix.

🙂

Anyway, this all just came out of me spontaneous without any thought. UGH

You came in as a teacher for we who are ready for what you share. Others who have not discovered SirBacon.org yet.

Hmmm, you are not Bacon, I don't think. Too, "technical" maybe.

But Dee?? I could feel it! LOL

 

 

[Light-of-Truth]

OK, CJ. 🙂

I found your profile "About Us" after your hint it was there! I'm a treasure hunter and built this forum, yet missed it totally! LOL

My Grandfather was a CJ who taught me how to pound a hammer and drive a stick shift.

Pranksters have been a favorite of mine since my teen years. 🙂

Welcome, CJ! We'll all have a jolly B'Hive buzzing time!!