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The Alchemical Quest


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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2024 at 6:00 PM, Allisnum2er said:

Hi CJ,

I would say that in "Quote me : I am a dwarf." you used 3 times the letter "a" (two too many) and that at that time "dwarfe" was spelled with a final letter "e".

But thanks to you I learned a new word in English : dwarfish, that fit perfectly into the "fish" theme ! 😄

And I would say that if bacon was a dwarf he was a gyant dwarfe.

This is a reference to "Love's Labor's Lost".

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/Bran_F1/147/index.html%3fzoom=1200.html

Looking for the spelling of "dwarf" used by Shakespeare in the First Folio, I noticed an error in "gyant drawfe".

I like to think that this is not an error but an invitation to "draw" something but what ? Maybe a constellation ! 🙂 

Then, I noticed the word half vertically.

Interestingly , there are many ways to form the name "BACON".

Rob, one synchronicity for you, notice "dee" right above "night-watch". 😉

image.png.a74162da9cb16eeeb97176344f821e6c.png

And talking about the "Fish" theme, I noticed "Cod", peeces or piscis ?, "Sole".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sole_(fish)

Is there another fishes in disguise in this scene ?

image.png.eb82afb8a6c4132adeafacba6e136884.png

"Gardon" that stands for "guerden" meaning "reward" is also the French name of a Fish, the Roach. 🙂 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_roach

I wonder whether Shakespeare used  "Gardon" instead of Guerden in order to hide "Don Gar".

That could explain why he talks about "Don Cupid", to put us on the path, "Don" meaning Lord.

image.png.9718033d3e9e6afc37278e6b379a55ee.png

And I remind you that Gar, meaning "spear" is the 33rd and last rune of the Anglo-saxon Futhark.

Gardon -> Don Gar -> Lord 33 (Spear) -> Lord Bacon (Spear) ?

Thus, the message concealed by the clown could be ...

Francis Bacon (33) - Lord Bacon (Spear)

The item referred to is the codpiece, that "armor" of the male genitalia. He's using King of codpeeces to mock in the fashion that many mocked Henry VIII for modelling some rather large codpieces on his tiny frame. It's a way to laugh at someone's vanity. Is Bacon mocking the original Tudor son here?

You reply does support the point I am making. Whatever word cue I might send your way I am confident that you could extract it from the text in a way that is supportive of some preexisting idea. This is what is so troubling about the many possibilities that exist.

This isn't synchronicity. It's what comes out of the laws of large numbers in probability. Flip a coin often enough and it is not rare at all to have 50 tails come in a row. It must happen at some point. This is why it is so useful to know what domain of possibility we are playing with when we are fishing out letters in a large text. Millions of letters read in millions of ways means anything should there to be found which looks improbable to a passerby. 

Edited by RoyalCraftiness
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On 5/26/2024 at 2:23 PM, Christie Waldman said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Alfred Dodd in The Personal Poems of Francis Bacon: Shakespeare's Sonnet Diary (Liverpool: Daily Post Printers, 1938) puts the Sonnets in a different order and explains his reasons for doing so. It might be interesting to view things in that order at some point, as well.

The reason would be his bias, and it would be good to see what is biasing him.  This particular Sonnet is known to be  related to others in the work, so it may be that one can start to imagine a certain skip sequencing.  It is all up for grabs. The skip may in fact be a known mathematical series. I believe Lewis Carroll exploited this. He would have been aware of what people were suggesting/seeing in his time that he could have used to give an example of in his own works.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/26/2024 at 2:58 PM, Allisnum2er said:

Hi C.J,

My research led me to this passage few years ago.

At that time, I did not imagine that some messages could eventually be concealed in the middle of some passages.

However, I quickly realized that there were some differences between the text in the First Folio (1623) and the one in the first (1603) and second (1604) Quatro.

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/BL_Q2_Ham/38/index.html%3fzoom=750.html

image.png.6952b3ccb0be34f997b2e5333db76856.png

Notice that in the Quatros, there is no mention of Hercules and his load and that in the passage of Hamlet we have "twenty, fortie, fifty, a hundred". Moreover, "s'bloud" is missing in the First Folio.

In my view, the missing "fifty" could be explained by the importance of the sum 20 + 40 + 100 = 160

It could be a clue, an indication, suggesting to take a closer look at the pages of the First Folio related with 160.

At that time, my idea was strenghtened by another one , a cipher that I found  that gave interesting results and that I called the K1 cipher.

1373672045_2022-12-07(1).png.5fe8dab7585c35a74d7c410ad2e96a8b.png

I shared a part of my ideas/suggestions on pages 160 of the First Folio by the past.

Here is something that I did not share before.

The first page 160 of the First Folio in " A Midsummer Night's Dream" is the 177th page of the Book by counting from Ben Jonson's poem "To the Reader".

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/SLNSW_F1/178/index.html%3fzoom=1275.html

177 is WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE simple cipher.

If we consider that Ben Jonson's poem is on page 2, this page 160 is the 178th page of the First Folio.

Interestingly, 178 is the Kay Cipher of WILL TUDOR.

On this page , a simple message was conceal'd with a simple  instruction to follow in order to find it.

And the message was concealed ... IN THE MIDDLE !

"Make periods in the midst of sentences"

"To shew our simple skill"

image.png.498f7850ceb8780c436d3682ef8bd9fa.png

Notice that the Prologue tells us all we need to know in order to find this simple message.

WILL IS HERE.

"That is the true beginning of our end"

The letters A and T may refer to Aleph and Tav , the Beginning and the End.

Now, WHO IS THIS "WILL" ?

WILL(IAM) SHAKESPEARE or WILL TUDOR or both of them ? 🙂

 I underlined "but all disordered" because I wonder if it could be an anagram concealing "tudor".

 

Back to the passage in Hamlet that you mentioned.

I think that you could be right with your idea of "FORTUNA".

Once again, I share ideas/ suggestions/( But maybe should I use now the word "infections" ? 😄)

This passage could have been modified between 1604 and 1623 in order to conceal more messages.

image.png.a56c67ec3078ca0a4ec847b6abf4efae.png

One of the loads of Hercules was the weight of the WORLD.

Right under "carry it" the word "Lord" and the "w" of "would" form the word WORLD.

And fortuna could , indeed, be a possibility that make sense.

Now, why Hercules and not Atlas instead ?

Could it be because of a link between Hercules and Fortuna that does not exist between Atlas and Fortuna ?

https://www.antiquarius.it/en/xvii-xviii-century-dutch-school/9457-vertu-mesure-du-bon-heur-hercules-fortuna.html

image.png.263ccf0944007dc16fe4fbbf9cdcb89d.png

I do not say that this is what was intended but a possibility, I share my thoughts.

Another important load of Hercules was the Two Pillars, the "Twin T".

https://collections.artsmia.org/art/124314/hercules-carrying-the-columns-of-gaza-sebald-beham

Could it be an invitation to find the two pillars (T.T.) ?

image.png.2fb0e7a24fd96180b77292f1dca49252.png

T.T. W. TUDOR -  Little Porke (Hamlet)

There is something in this (minus the fifty) that is more than natural. If only philosophy could find out. Philosophy is most certainly science here as we can conclude that there is a play with natural philosophy (what became science to us). There's no way to pierce the mystery of death with science.

I am interested in the symbolic meaning attributed to 100 in the Bible. It is given as completion. I assume this comes from Hellenism and the idea of the squaring of 10. The cubing of 10 gives us the glorious reign of Christ in 1000 years, for example. 

There seems to be no doubt about 20 and 40. They are carriers of the death and resurrection idea. It may very well be that all is imagined to rest on the twin pillars that are life and afterlife. In this life you are merely standing on one leg, and it is one leg in the journey. The other leg of the journey is going to take you to the undiscovered country. 

20/100 is the perfect fifth. With the third and the tonic completes the musical chord (tritone). 40 is of the dimension 5x8 which is used to depict the cross with a midway point on its stem that forms an angle of 40 degrees with the end points of the arms. There something "scientificky" in this that echoes the supernatural beliefs in numbers. To me, at least, this gives an insight into how the propagandizing of patterns in numbers was exploited to attempt to strengthen religious beliefs. 

There is certainly an idea of the "will" of God being behind it since we are constantly being presented with the idea of an architect with a plan.  

Symbols get borrowed a lot. I came across the TT symbolism again this morning in a not too surprising place:

spacer.png

We can immediately see how the 18 and the 40 were also incorporated into the symbolic package which includes the starting crescent (symbol of the rebirth) and the white horse and the dark horse (who is carrying away the white female figure). Nice bridge into the K cipher scheme...

Anyway, it is also a good reminder that people who use these symbols can be up to no good. What hides behind a symbol is not always true to the ideal. This is true of Christianity and of Protestantism. 

Edited by RoyalCraftiness
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On 5/26/2024 at 11:09 PM, Light-of-Truth said:

Two easy ways to think of the Sonnets design are as a clock and a compass.

12:00 AM, Midnight with the compass pointing North the Sonnets begin with:

FRom fairest creatures we desire increase,

Line 1, Day 1, Sonnet 1. The cycle begins...

12:00 AM on my clock the hands points up, or North. For me, Midnight points North by default, both hands.

The end of Sonnet 77 is the Middle of the Sonnets it just came up in this thread. 77 Sonnets and then 77 more Sonnets to make 154. Easy math.

The last line of the first half of the Sonnets is the last Line of Sonnet 77 which is Line 1,078 of the Sonnets:

Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke.

So this Line is at the 6:00 place on a clock (5:59 and 59 seconds) and due South on a compass. Both hands down. I've yet to understand why this line is here, but may not need to.

The "Middle" of the first half is easy to find. On a clock I'd look for 3:00 O'clock or East on a compass. 

The Sonnets Pyramid design has 364 Days synced with the 154 Sonnets. The first half of the Sonnets has 182 Days and 77 Sonnets. The second half of the Sonnets has the same numbers. The 182 Days of each half can be divided in half to end up with 91 Days in each quarter.

The last Line of Day 91, ending the first quarter of the Sonnets is:

That by this seperation I may giue:

We'll revisit that, but what is the Line at 9:00 and West on the compass?

It is the star to euery wandring barke,

This is a very important Line (1618) in the Sonnets in a very important Sonnet (116).

OK, so let's think about this. To me the "star" should point North. So if we accept "That by this seperation I may give:" with the colon in the original and rotate the clock/compass by 90 degrees we have the "It is the star to euery wandring barke," at 11:59:59 PM on Day 364 to be the final Line of the Sonnets with both hands up and pointing true North.

That means the line, "Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke" would be at 9:00 (8:59:59) and pointing West.

Let me say this, I have explored four variations and they all work. It's like your can turn the clock and compass by 90 degrees and each arrangement has special surprises.

If we end the Sonnets with "Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke" at 11:59:59 PM, which fits into one scenario, then, "It is the star to euery wandring barke," is at 3:00 pointing East. I feel like Freemasons might like that idea. The Sun is a star, right? 😉

The Sonnets design is so amazing, even knowing what I know it blows my mind. I believe it is a lot older than Bacon and Shakespeare.

 

 

By definition the Sun is the Great Oriental (Eastern) star. It is called that because of where it is found on the horizon when the Sun rises. The Western star could be thought of as the same Sun setting on the horizon (as in death). The occidental star guides our ships (lives). Death is the signpost that guides you to the afterlife. Go this way...

When Haliburton wrote of the star that guides the sailors' barques he used the Stella Maria (Polaris). This has the connotation of the star that guides all other stars as all stars revolve around the Northern Star in our sky. That works too. 

Geographically speaking the East has long been equated with Jerusalem (it once was treated as a pole atop the world in earlier times), so it is reasonable to think that the meaning of going West is to tail it in the opposite direction (in the direction of the setting Sun), perhaps through the Pillars of Hercules. Traditionally, the sailors sailed West by following the great Northern Constellations which were visible at or near their latitudes.  For Northern Europe that was around 40-45 degrees latitude. This is where you can inject the Summer triangle and Cygnus in the narrative because of their utmost prominence. They come and add another geometric component to the story with the triangular asterism. The Eastern triangular asterism is Triangulum. On this line pointing West we can imagine a symbolic journey towards the completion of some preordained journey. To Bacon and company, heading West was promoted as that sort of God ordained plan for England. 

Going 100 degrees (for completion) West from Jerusalem gets you to a longitude of 66.6 W of Paris. The third and the two thirds are involved in this journey through the Paris longitude. There is something very musical about involving the perfect third with the perfect fifth when they are attached to the tonic. It recalls an idea of a harmony of the spheres upon the globe treated as a sphere. 

 

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On 5/29/2024 at 3:44 PM, Light-of-Truth said:

There must be some kind of way outta here. 😉

One of my top few synchronicity events in my entire life involved a John Dee book and some Watchtowers in my view. It was on a day when I was trying to send messages back to Dee using 1881, and a book was handed to me as a surprise. Who else connects Dee to the Watchtowers?

image.png.ea3be4b1c2d408a89609ffccf9c98c42.png

 

If someone passed you a copy of the Watchtower you were given Jehovah Witness literature. lol It's published in no less than 444 languages. 

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1 hour ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

If someone passed you a copy of the Watchtower you were given Jehovah Witness literature. lol It's published in no less than 444 languages. 

Many doorknockers have stuck them in my mailbox or in the door. LOL

I think it was AVE who described the four Watchtowers to Dee.

http://www.jwmt.org/v2n18/tablets.html

Let’s return to 1584.   Less than a month after Dee transcribed the Angelic Governors, his accomplice Edward Kelley, on the summer solstice, dreamed of four gigantic Watchtowers which (by his description) ruled the “World.”  We’ll see later that this “World” Kelley dreamed of might mean something other than our day-to-day physical reality:  again, not knowing when or how to “translate” terms in and out of their Renaissance mythological viewpoint has been a stumbling block for many of us who work with Enochian materials.  

By June 25, these Watchtowers are communicated as four 12 x 13 grids filled with Enochian letters and joined by a Black Cross.   This is the material Dee calls the “Great Table,” which we might think of as the great central operating system that builds upon all components that have been received before, and through which the operator can run particular linguistic strings, like the Enochian calls.  On June 26, 1584, via his scryer Kelley, Dee records the angel AVE telling him the “purpose” for these four Watchtowers:[16]

Ave:  Now to the purpose.  Rest, for the place is Holy.  First, generally what this Tablet Containeth. 

  1. All human knowledge.

  2. Out of it springeth Physick.

  3. The knowledge of the Elemental Creatures among you.  How many kinds there are, and for what use they were created.  Those that live in the air, by themselves.  Those that live in the waters, by themselves.  Those that live in the earth, by themselves.  The property of fire—which is the secret life of all things. 

  4. The knowledge, finding, and use of Metals.  The virtues of them.  The congelations and virtues of Stones.  They [these preceding three things] are all of one matter.

  5. The conjoining and knitting together of Natures.  The destruction of Nature, and of things that may perish.

  6. Moving from place to place (as into this Country, of that Country at pleasure.]

  7. The knowledge of all crafts Mechanical.

  8. Transmutatio formalis, sed non essentialis [formal alchemical transmutation.]

  9. [Dee’s note in margin:] The ninth chapter may be added, and is of the secrets of men knowing, whereof there is a particular table.

Now I need to look in my box of old envelopes stuffed with Bacon info and find the Xerox copy of the Dee book, or maybe only a chapter, that was sent to me on that day when I was looking at four watchtowers near a town that starts with the letters "Ave..." while I was consciously trying to send Dee a message from his future. Funny how these things happen. I wondered if I was AVE, but hardly an angel! LOL

<--1881-->

 

 

 

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T A A A A A A A A A A A T
157     www.Light-of-Truth.com     287
<-- 1 8 8 1 1
O 1 1 8 8 1 -->

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7 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

The item referred to is the codpiece, that "armor" of the male genitalia. He's using King of codpeeces to mock in the fashion that many mocked Henry VIII for modelling some rather large codpieces on his tiny frame. It's a way to laugh at someone's vanity. Is Bacon mocking the original Tudor son here?

Codpiece envy? LOL

https://www.shakespeareswords.com/Public/Glossary.aspx?id=3205

image.png.b8b6a9d561eff806b15f8df6984dfa0e.png

Do we want to know that PENIS is 33 Short cipher. 😉

 

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T A A A A A A A A A A A T
157     www.Light-of-Truth.com     287
<-- 1 8 8 1 1
O 1 1 8 8 1 -->

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23 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

The reason would be his bias

It's easy to throw around the word "bias." But did you even read the book? Do you even know why he put these personal, private poems in the order he did? Because in that order, they made sense to him as telling Francis Bacon's life story. He explains his belief that the 1609 date printed as date of publication is false, that the true date is 1625. 1609 was only the date the sonnets were filed with the Stationers Register. Printers then would print whatever date you told them to print, Dodd writes. The change in the order of the sonnets for publication was so it would not be obvious that the sonnets were telling Bacon's life story, to bypass the censors which sometimes dealt very harshly with offenders. The Queen had ordered no one was to speak of the Succession. Doing so had cost Richard Stubbes his right hand. Dodd says these poems were Bacon's way of talking to his mother, Queen Elizabeth. See Alfred Dodd, The Personal Poems of Francis Bacon: Shake-speare's Sonnet Diary, Alfred Dodd Edition (Liverpool: Daily Post Printers, 1938), 198-204. That makes sense to me. I think it would not be bias but a conviction to telling the truth that would make a man go to the trouble of publishing a 304 page book on a topic such as this at his own expense. If you read the entire book and still think you see "bias" on Dodd's part, then, please would you explain your theory.

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16 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Many doorknockers have stuck them in my mailbox or in the door. LOL

I think it was AVE who described the four Watchtowers to Dee.

http://www.jwmt.org/v2n18/tablets.html

Let’s return to 1584.   Less than a month after Dee transcribed the Angelic Governors, his accomplice Edward Kelley, on the summer solstice, dreamed of four gigantic Watchtowers which (by his description) ruled the “World.”  We’ll see later that this “World” Kelley dreamed of might mean something other than our day-to-day physical reality:  again, not knowing when or how to “translate” terms in and out of their Renaissance mythological viewpoint has been a stumbling block for many of us who work with Enochian materials.  

By June 25, these Watchtowers are communicated as four 12 x 13 grids filled with Enochian letters and joined by a Black Cross.   This is the material Dee calls the “Great Table,” which we might think of as the great central operating system that builds upon all components that have been received before, and through which the operator can run particular linguistic strings, like the Enochian calls.  On June 26, 1584, via his scryer Kelley, Dee records the angel AVE telling him the “purpose” for these four Watchtowers:[16]

Ave:  Now to the purpose.  Rest, for the place is Holy.  First, generally what this Tablet Containeth. 

  1. All human knowledge.

  2. Out of it springeth Physick.

  3. The knowledge of the Elemental Creatures among you.  How many kinds there are, and for what use they were created.  Those that live in the air, by themselves.  Those that live in the waters, by themselves.  Those that live in the earth, by themselves.  The property of fire—which is the secret life of all things. 

  4. The knowledge, finding, and use of Metals.  The virtues of them.  The congelations and virtues of Stones.  They [these preceding three things] are all of one matter.

  5. The conjoining and knitting together of Natures.  The destruction of Nature, and of things that may perish.

  6. Moving from place to place (as into this Country, of that Country at pleasure.]

  7. The knowledge of all crafts Mechanical.

  8. Transmutatio formalis, sed non essentialis [formal alchemical transmutation.]

  9. [Dee’s note in margin:] The ninth chapter may be added, and is of the secrets of men knowing, whereof there is a particular table.

Now I need to look in my box of old envelopes stuffed with Bacon info and find the Xerox copy of the Dee book, or maybe only a chapter, that was sent to me on that day when I was looking at four watchtowers near a town that starts with the letters "Ave..." while I was consciously trying to send Dee a message from his future. Funny how these things happen. I wondered if I was AVE, but hardly an angel! LOL

<--1881-->

 

 

 

"...many writers have noted that it’s impossible to prove that the reception of the Enochian language or system was a fraud."

This is true of leprechauns and Sasquatches. How does one prove that someone's creative imagination is fraudulent? Those who truly believe do so with legitimate conviction. We know this from watching Derren Browne videos involving highly suggestible individuals. Suggestible minds at a séance are capable of experiencing things that non suggestible minds are not, informing us that experience means nothing when it comes to determining what truly happened in the case of it being filmed. It is a mistake to assume fraud in the case of such individuals. Their experiences are real, but their realties are fraudulent in the sense that they are manufactured from within the brain from biases that make their way into minds by suggestion. You would first have to possess a belief which says that séances would allow communication with spirits. The same thing is true of a religious experience. There can be none if there isn't first a belief that one is possible. It is possible to condition for the acceptance of this suggestion. 

The danger in this sort of magic is that one can introduce just about anything and have it operate on some people. We are all susceptible to this to some degree, hence the opportunity for AIs and LLMs to work on us as conditioning vectors which can be profited from. The angel AVE can be compared to a large language model. What can sink us with "AI" is the belief in intelligence when there is none. This parlor game that was created by Kelley and Dee reminds me of John Searle's Chinese room problem where the translation rule is mistaken for the power to know the meaning of symbols which requires intelligence. You can never imply that the method knows anything. What you think you know comes out of belief and bias.

Interestingly, the 12x13 is reminiscent of the 25 character grid in which we can fit in the Latin alphabet.  4 times that many characters give 24 x 26= 624 which is 24. 98 squared, so close to what one would want to create to account for a grid of 25 x 25. 624 is 6 less than a number divided by 7 and 3 less than a number divided by 11. It would appear that Dee and Kelley worked out something that would contain at least a letter count that would accommodate a numerology using 7 and 11 by injecting other characters within a cross. The Sonnets for example are numbered 154 which is divisible by 7 and 11 exactly. 12x13 is 156 so that sort of gridding was going to have to be fudged, which is why we probably get the cross with empty character spaces.

Just for the heck of it I've modified my own bit of letter gridding magic to produce a larger grid with a black cross which contains four watchtowers that I have called 4 instances of T. Mine are watch"tau"ers. I have decided to use Neil Young's version of "Four Strong Winds" as its theme song (subject to his approval).

I could accommodate the desired numerology by making he cross as wide as I wanted and by including blank spaces. This was not revealed to me by any angel. It has slowly come out of only reverse engineering the 24 character alphabet. The end result is identical to a cross and four pellet suggestion. It is possibel to show how similar this is to Masonic compass and square geometry in some intersting ways. 

1r260N9.jpg

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1 hour ago, Christie Waldman said:

It's easy to throw around the word "bias." But did you even read the book? Do you even know why he put these personal, private poems in the order he did? Because in that order, they made sense to him as telling Francis Bacon's life story. He explains his belief that the 1609 date printed as date of publication is false, that the true date is 1625. 1609 was only the date the sonnets were filed with the Stationers Register. Printers then would print whatever date you told them to print, Dodd writes. The change in the order of the sonnets for publication was so it would not be obvious that the sonnets were telling Bacon's life story, to bypass the censors which sometimes dealt very harshly with offenders. The Queen had ordered no one was to speak of the Succession. Doing so had cost Richard Stubbes his right hand. Dodd says these poems were Bacon's way of talking to his mother, Queen Elizabeth. See Alfred Dodd, The Personal Poems of Francis Bacon: Shake-speare's Sonnet Diary, Alfred Dodd Edition (Liverpool: Daily Post Printers, 1938), 198-204. That makes sense to me. I think it would not be bias but a conviction to telling the truth that would make a man go to the trouble of publishing a 304 page book on a topic such as this at his own expense. If you read the entire book and still think you see "bias" on Dodd's part, then, please would you explain your theory.

"Nullius in Verba" is my motto. It is not so easy to throw in bias that some would start by assuming one is always at play. We are formed and acted upon by spells cast in symbolic language. This invites, among other things, authors of "spells" to try their luck at publishing things they dream up.

You are dealing with professional confidence men here, one whom was likely mentally ill and very manipulative, but who can really know to what degree? There is no such thing as magic. Magic is being in control of narratives if it is anything. Our confidence in money is magic. What there is amounts to the suggestibility of the human mind that is at anyone's disposal to work with. If it were not for that there would never have been a history of initiatory schemes to achieve transformation of minds.

The incremental approach to modifying behavior is part of a long game that has been played by cultures. Those who survive have very grand arching narratives that are well defended are carefully crafted to accommodate human biases regrading safety. We get a sense of it as soon as we step into a Church where we discover that there is an approach that is scheduled to play on the individual from cradle to grave. It is certainly not love that is behind it. It is a desire to have cooperative schemes that can ensure internal safety within factions, I would argue. Ideas are settled upon and they are embellished in the direction of not being rejected. Ove time there are always movements to return to previous versions of ideas that sprout up. Enochian magic is older than Dee.

Here there is a community of suggestible minds who operate on various older suggestions that people love to quote from as the gospel. Very few seem interested in finding the nugget that has infected the minds of our predecessors.

Nothing ever gets explained by quoting people. To truly understand our history we have to know how our minds work, and we don't. It's a mystery that has defied scientific inquiry so far. It is highly unlikely that animals have ethics. It is why one must train an animal to be what he is not by natural inclination. We are fortunate that fortune alone allows for "good" character traits to have surfaced in he right blend to allow for some offspring to be trained to be cooperative by mimetic mechanisms. 

Skepticism and ejection of suggestions which is at the basis of the scientific method is adversarial. It may be why so many detest the sciences today. It is threatening to a host of beliefs that would rather persist and which demand the freedom to condition for in the world. Who will stand in the way of anyone's religion? It has become a safe place for believing in anything.

If you read Bacon it is clear that he was highly infected with religious ideas, probably to the point of being hopelessly incapable of excluding magical thinking. We are so far beyond that today. No one should read Dee and Kelly seriously. These are case studies in how the mind can work when it is armed with novel ideas.

Trust people at your own risk. No one deserves to have his word taken at face value.

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1 hour ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

You are dealing with professional confidence men here, one whom was likely mentally ill and very manipulative, but who can really know to what degree?

Alfred Dodd was a person with a passion, like many of us. Sharing one's viewpoint or ideas does not mean you are mentally ill or manipulative. Having an audience does not mean you have a following.

Dodd was a Freemason, he does not hide that. His take on the Sonnets reflects his point of view. Agree or not with his arrangement of the Sonnets, I don't feel as if he was creating a Cult of Dodd trying to manipulate my mind.

But maybe you would claim that all sharing of ideas is manipulating each other's minds?

Hmmm, are you trying to manipulate my mind, CJ? LOL

BTW, depression and paranoia are considered mental illness.

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22 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Alfred Dodd was a person with a passion, like many of us. Sharing one's viewpoint or ideas does not mean you are mentally ill or manipulative. Having an audience does not mean you have a following.

Dodd was a Freemason, he does not hide that. His take on the Sonnets reflects his point of view. Agree or not with his arrangement of the Sonnets, I don't feel as if he was creating a Cult of Dodd trying to manipulate my mind.

But maybe you would claim that all sharing of ideas is manipulating each other's minds?

Hmmm, are you trying to manipulate my mind, CJ? LOL

BTW, depression and paranoia are considered mental illness.

Of course I am. In a way that will make you more skeptical, of course...If you can start  to identify what has infected you then that is a victory for you which I can have no part in.  I rarely will encourage anyone to establish beliefs in the merit of old ideas. What has to come is better new ones.

 

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7 minutes ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

Of course I am. In a way that will make you more skeptical, of course...If you can start  to identify what has infected you then that is a victory for you which I can have no part in.  I rarely will encourage anyone to establish beliefs in the merit of old ideas. What has to come is better new ones.

 

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So you are like a Church preaching that everything we believe is wrong and you offer a better way. Ultimately your religion is that we should accept that Willy Shaks was the author of the works and we should just believe it because it is not worth our attention?

I am infected with joy and pleasure in seeking my favorite candidate’s possible claim to the Authorship. 

Without my “hobby” I might not be as happy as I am. Where does a person find the passion that feeds their life? Wish I could help my 89 year old dad and my wife find something to spark their interest besides watching TV.

Imagine how dull this forum would be if we all gave up our passion and said, “Forget it, we are all lost souls manipulating each other and only CJ is wise.” Yikes! How sad that would be. Lol

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2 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

"...many writers have noted that it’s impossible to prove that the reception of the Enochian language or system was a fraud."

This is true of leprechauns and Sasquatches. How does one prove that someone's creative imagination is fraudulent? Those who truly believe do so with legitimate conviction. We know this from watching Derren Browne videos involving highly suggestible individuals. Suggestible minds at a séance are capable of experiencing things that non suggestible minds are not, informing us that experience means nothing when it comes to determining what truly happened in the case of it being filmed. It is a mistake to assume fraud in the case of such individuals. Their experiences are real, but their realties are fraudulent in the sense that they are manufactured from within the brain from biases that make their way into minds by suggestion. You would first have to possess a belief which says that séances would allow communication with spirits. The same thing is true of a religious experience. There can be none if there isn't first a belief that one is possible. It is possible to condition for the acceptance of this suggestion. 

The danger in this sort of magic is that one can introduce just about anything and have it operate on some people. We are all susceptible to this to some degree, hence the opportunity for AIs and LLMs to work on us as conditioning vectors which can be profited from. The angel AVE can be compared to a large language model. What can sink us with "AI" is the belief in intelligence when there is none. This parlor game that was created by Kelley and Dee reminds me of John Searle's Chinese room problem where the translation rule is mistaken for the power to know the meaning of symbols which requires intelligence. You can never imply that the method knows anything. What you think you know comes out of belief and bias.

Interestingly, the 12x13 is reminiscent of the 25 character grid in which we can fit in the Latin alphabet.  4 times that many characters give 24 x 26= 624 which is 24. 98 squared, so close to what one would want to create to account for a grid of 25 x 25. 624 is 6 less than a number divided by 7 and 3 less than a number divided by 11. It would appear that Dee and Kelley worked out something that would contain at least a letter count that would accommodate a numerology using 7 and 11 by injecting other characters within a cross. The Sonnets for example are numbered 154 which is divisible by 7 and 11 exactly. 12x13 is 156 so that sort of gridding was going to have to be fudged, which is why we probably get the cross with empty character spaces.

Just for the heck of it I've modified my own bit of letter gridding magic to produce a larger grid with a black cross which contains four watchtowers that I have called 4 instances of T. Mine are watch"tau"ers. I have decided to use Neil Young's version of "Four Strong Winds" as its theme song (subject to his approval).

I could accommodate the desired numerology by making he cross as wide as I wanted and by including blank spaces. This was not revealed to me by any angel. It has slowly come out of only reverse engineering the 24 character alphabet. The end result is identical to a cross and four pellet suggestion. It is possibel to show how similar this is to Masonic compass and square geometry in some intersting ways. 

1r260N9.jpg

If you consider how many squares of any size one can make out of all these squares shown there are 25 squares in total, not considering the 4 watch"tau"er squares that are just ornaments. 25 squared is 625, one less than 4 x 12x 13=624.

 

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37 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

So you are like a Church preaching that everything we believe is wrong and you offer a better way. Ultimately your religion is that we should accept that Willy Shaks was the author of the works and we should just believe it because it is not worth our attention?

I am infected with joy and pleasure in seeking my favorite candidate’s possible claim to the Authorship. 

Without my “hobby” I might not be as happy as I am. Where does a person find the passion that feeds their life? Wish I could help my 89 year old dad and my wife find something to spark their interest besides watching TV.

Imagine how dull this forum would be if we all gave up our passion and said, “Forget it, we are all lost souls manipulating each other and only CJ is wise.” Yikes! How sad that would be. Lol

This place would be like the non existent empty skeptic forums of red pill takers. It would be dull and uninteresting, but logically sound. Take the blue pill and have fun in the Matrix. Your energies will serve some unknown purpose there that is not tied to your joy. The fact you live is a very beneficial economic claim on resources for those who have built up the Matrix of ideas around us.  The blue pill is about resignation to belief in someone's plan. If you refuse to believe in anything your life is a constant battle against the encroaching sentinels.  The Matrix is a great story that allows our attitudes to be explored. There are some people who are not happy seeing other people being happy being gullible. I have no understanding of why that is. That the gullible would be angry at the prospects of there being individuals against fake happiness is perplexing too.  Should we have games like the stock market that play us more than we play them? It may be that some do not like to have to coexist with fictions because they long for the truth that no one wants to believe in. 

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1 hour ago, Light-of-Truth said:

So you are like a Church preaching that everything we believe is wrong and you offer a better way. Ultimately your religion is that we should accept that Willy Shaks was the author of the works and we should just believe it because it is not worth our attention?

I am infected with joy and pleasure in seeking my favorite candidate’s possible claim to the Authorship. 

Without my “hobby” I might not be as happy as I am. Where does a person find the passion that feeds their life? Wish I could help my 89 year old dad and my wife find something to spark their interest besides watching TV.

Imagine how dull this forum would be if we all gave up our passion and said, “Forget it, we are all lost souls manipulating each other and only CJ is wise.” Yikes! How sad that would be. Lol

That's not the case I would be satisfied to not know and to not be told that we know when we don't know. The fact there has been infection and contagion is what draws one in to perform a diagnostic on the patients. Show me your symptoms so I may better know the thing infecting you. I have hope that mild infections can be cured, leaving the world in a wonderful state of uncertainty. 

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2 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

If you consider how many squares of any size one can make out of all these squares shown there are 25 squares in total, not considering the 4 watch"tau"er squares that are just ornaments. 25 squared is 625, one less than 4 x 12x 13=624.

 

Of course I noticed the 12x13 which is similar to 6x26 which is the first 6 Tiers ending on Day 156. Next number is 157. 😉

5 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

"...many writers have noted that it’s impossible to prove that the reception of the Enochian language or system was a fraud."

I tried to get involved and interested in the Enochian community. Hey, I actually thought I might have been AVE long ago. LOL

But what I found was not my cup of tea, at all. As much as I am interested in Dee and his communications into the void (<--1881-->), I found too many egos who seemed to think they were Dee's buddies. My lonely experience was with a crude drawing of a tree of life with a Diamond in it.

 

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1 hour ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

That's not the case I would be satisfied to not know and to not be told that we know when we don't know. The fact there has been infection and contagion is what draws one in to perform a diagnostic on the patients. Show me your symptoms so I may better know the thing infecting you. I have hope that mild infections can be cured, leaving the world in a wonderful state of uncertainty. 

You really believe you are a Savior and we are lost. Even if that is true nobody is soliciting a Savior in our forum to save us from whatever evil you imagine in your paranoid and very depressed mind. 😉

Look CJ, you enjoy sharing your beliefs with us while basically calling us all crazy and foolish for what we believe. Are you not as confused as any of us, except maybe me? LOL

I do hope, as a compassionate human being, that your infections will be cured. 😉

 

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2 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

...4 watch"tau"er squares...

I like that, "4 watch tau'er squares". Clever and I may kick that around in my infected mind. 🙂

23 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

http://www.jwmt.org/v2n18/tablets.html

Let’s return to 1584.   Less than a month after Dee transcribed the Angelic Governors, his accomplice Edward Kelley, on the summer solstice, dreamed of four gigantic Watchtowers which (by his description) ruled the “World.”  We’ll see later that this “World” Kelley dreamed of might mean something other than our day-to-day physical reality:  again, not knowing when or how to “translate” terms in and out of their Renaissance mythological viewpoint has been a stumbling block for many of us who work with Enochian materials.  

I know you can't believe that Dee or anybody else has ever actually tapped into past and future thoughts because that is outside your tiny bubble of reality, but what if that is possible? I bet you cannot even ask that without feeling you are vulnerable to anything science has yet to explain.

I'd not want to be in your bubble, believe that. 🙂

Funny, I was sending messages and visions back to Dee before I knew he was getting messages from Angels. I used to do it for prehistoric Shamans when looking for arrowheads. Just for fun.

 

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4 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

This place would be like the non existent empty skeptic forums of red pill takers. It would be dull and uninteresting, but logically sound. Take the blue pill and have fun in the Matrix. Your energies will serve some unknown purpose there that is not tied to your joy. The fact you live is a very beneficial economic claim on resources for those who have built up the Matrix of ideas around us.  The blue pill is about resignation to belief in someone's plan. If you refuse to believe in anything your life is a constant battle against the encroaching sentinels.  The Matrix is a great story that allows our attitudes to be explored. There are some people who are not happy seeing other people being happy being gullible. I have no understanding of why that is. That the gullible would be angry at the prospects of there being individuals against fake happiness is perplexing too.  Should we have games like the stock market that play us more than we play them? It may be that some do not like to have to coexist with fictions because they long for the truth that no one wants to believe in. 

And then there is having a good time for the pure sake of enjoying life.

I suppose you enjoy the weird trip you are on, without drugs as you state. I have no understanding of that. Makes me happy I blew my reality walls away as a teenager. 😉

Bacon did not teach me to suffer in ignorance afraid to think for myself. I'm not paranoid, not very much anyway. 🙂

You need a chill pill. Trying to make us believe what you believe is not worth much value on a forum where we choose to be on for what we enjoy. Don't be a troll.

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16 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I like that, "4 watch tau'er squares". Clever and I may kick that around in my infected mind. 🙂

I know you can't believe that Dee or anybody else has ever actually tapped into past and future thoughts because that is outside your tiny bubble of reality, but what if that is possible? I bet you cannot even ask that without feeling you are vulnerable to anything science has yet to explain.

I'd not want to be in your bubble, believe that. 🙂

Funny, I was sending messages and visions back to Dee before I knew he was getting messages from Angels. I used to do it for prehistoric Shamans when looking for arrowheads. Just for fun.

 

It is not our role to believe the outpourings of charlatans. About the only thing available to us is engineering things and reverse engineering things using what works well enough to understand relationships on our energy scales. There is every indication that what was engineered there is the product of individuals who are caught up in a numerological Judeo Christian game which is the product of speculations common in this period because esotericism was in vogue and totally exploitable. It is similar to the Victorian obsession of trying to read secret messages in texts using any rule imaginable.  Because there is an apparent design we know that it can only be the product of a designer, and since there is no God who has designed the world with number counting schemes the blame falls on the presenters. There's a long list of things you'd have to believe in for Dee's suggestion to be unconditionally accepted. I don't think you have even begun to examine all that you would have to accept a priori. You have a bias to accept Dee, because you have loaded expectations abut what "powers" he possessed. If Dee believed in magic he would have been susceptible of being manipulated by Kelley, or vice versa. 

You are throwing out the word "time" like you know the word intimately and know that one can travel it like a highway. We don't happen to know that this is possible, so we should not claim we do. Just like the case of gravity being just the consequence of the curvature of spacetime we are not wise to think of time outside of being a relationship. I use spacetime because space and time are probably just the semblance of "things" which many assume are two distinct things. The clock may very well be a lie, but it is a very good piece of engineering that allows us to use the lie in a way that works for us. We can set the hands of the clock back to previous times, and this is not known to be possible about the order or arrangements of units of space. It would be like asking you to reorganize a dump truck of sand particles to their past order after they had been dumped. Doable in principle, but computationally irreducible in practice. To be able to do that you would need a pocket Universe to simulate it in (that much processing power). To say that we cannot do it may also be related to the processing order of any rule we might imagine governs things on the smallest scales. 

If I was to believe Stephen Wolfram, space is akin to the basic unit and time is the processing order of rules in the ruliad.  But I should not believe it unconditionally. It is because it allows us to engineer certain things that we ought to suspect that this is in the right line of thinking. The clue is in what we can do with a suggestion. If all we can do is demand that it be accepted then we have nothing.

Belief, in the hands of people who take pride in the freedom to believe anything, is possible of all sorts of consequences.  I maintain that such a dynamic will work against the advancement of learning because it comes with a great inertia. "You can't make me not believe" is common enough of a refrain today. "You need to believe this or else" comes bothering you at your door often enough.

Peace is to know that you do not know and that there is not necessarily a way to know. 

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14 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

And then there is having a good time for the pure sake of enjoying life.

I suppose you enjoy the weird trip you are on, without drugs as you state. I have no understanding of that. Makes me happy I blew my reality walls away as a teenager. 😉

Bacon did not teach me to suffer in ignorance afraid to think for myself. I'm not paranoid, not very much anyway. 🙂

You need a chill pill. Trying to make us believe what you believe is not worth much value on a forum where we choose to be on for what we enjoy. Don't be a troll.

That's exactly what scientifically inclined people do. They wake up every morning and try and rain on the parade of the  people who say things they claim should be accepted. This funny breed of people don't even have to be saying anything at all about what should be accepted, only that certain things shouldn't. The scientific method based in skepticism and the adversarial disproving of things irks believers or hedonists to no end. Believers, in their very dishonest ways, love to pretend to be scientists when they are marketing their ideas, though.

Why not just be as blissful as cave men? I have very good indications that my neighbor has adopted this approach. Once beer was developed he needed no more progress. He has forsaken the razor and the bathtub to find his happiness. However, his children needed the discovery of cocaine in order that their business ventures could work.  One doesn't have to go back that far in history to find a state of mind and being that would suit him. Some are happy role playing the part of alchemists in a world where alchemy is now just a bad memory of simpler, more foolish thinking. There never was an alchemist who knew better than anyone today. Delusions of grandeur were more common in the past. We grow humbler now, or at least we should. The more we discover, the more we are shown that we did not know what we thought we knew. It's not that linear a relationship, but in general that is true. 

You need the annoyance of people who will present things differently than you do. To me, you are an invitation to find the flaw in the thinking behind the presentation. One has to always search for that thing that someone has accepted that makes his position so unshakeable. 

To be interested in Bacon is also to want to destroy the many myths about Bacon. One of the things I have come to realize is that he was a misguided scientist. He happened to err in the right direction, and this is why the development of science ended up producing the evidence against his beloved ideas of divinely created architecture.  It did not take that long after him for us to realize that randomness is what drives order. God should be equated to a chaotic principle. Destruction leads to new order. I am here only trying to be that Godly in my destruction. The chaos is good for you, but not necessarily for existing beliefs in places where they are championed.

Also if you would like me to post less, make it rain less. I'd rather be outside working.

 

 

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2 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

I am more like the destroyer of imaginary worlds, not the savior in one. I am the irritant who would potentially insult your savior.

You are a bitter old man with real social issues about to be banned from this forum.

You have offered some great resources and knowledge in the past, but it is clear your aim is to destroy and the only thing you are destroying is your privilege to be here. And that makes me a little sad, but we cannot destroy your obvious pain and suffering as you try to destroy our passions. Sorry, but that is a Truth.

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