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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Alfred Dodd in The Personal Poems of Francis Bacon: Shakespeare's Sonnet Diary (Liverpool: Daily Post Printers, 1938) puts the Sonnets in a different order and explains his reasons for doing so. It might be interesting to view things in that order at some point, as well.

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On 5/25/2024 at 3:23 PM, RoyalCraftiness said:

Consider this from Hamlet:

spacer.png

The last line is clever, and it tells us a bit about the mindset of the writer. More than natural is supernatural. For the supernatural we have only our philosophies to turn to. In our religious philosophies there may be a point to 20 and 40.  What is there in 20, 40 and 100 that is capable of transcending the meaning or mere numbers? Nothing that isn't a mind creation, that's for sure. If we are Christians we might see death, resurrection and completion in that trinity of numbers.

Hi C.J,

My research led me to this passage few years ago.

At that time, I did not imagine that some messages could eventually be concealed in the middle of some passages.

However, I quickly realized that there were some differences between the text in the First Folio (1623) and the one in the first (1603) and second (1604) Quatro.

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/BL_Q2_Ham/38/index.html%3fzoom=750.html

image.png.6952b3ccb0be34f997b2e5333db76856.png

Notice that in the Quatros, there is no mention of Hercules and his load and that in the passage of Hamlet we have "twenty, fortie, fifty, a hundred". Moreover, "s'bloud" is missing in the First Folio.

In my view, the missing "fifty" could be explained by the importance of the sum 20 + 40 + 100 = 160

It could be a clue, an indication, suggesting to take a closer look at the pages of the First Folio related with 160.

At that time, my idea was strenghtened by another one , a cipher that I found  that gave interesting results and that I called the K1 cipher.

1373672045_2022-12-07(1).png.5fe8dab7585c35a74d7c410ad2e96a8b.png

I shared a part of my ideas/suggestions on pages 160 of the First Folio by the past.

Here is something that I did not share before.

The first page 160 of the First Folio in " A Midsummer Night's Dream" is the 177th page of the Book by counting from Ben Jonson's poem "To the Reader".

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/SLNSW_F1/178/index.html%3fzoom=1275.html

177 is WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE simple cipher.

If we consider that Ben Jonson's poem is on page 2, this page 160 is the 178th page of the First Folio.

Interestingly, 178 is the Kay Cipher of WILL TUDOR.

On this page , a simple message was conceal'd with a simple  instruction to follow in order to find it.

And the message was concealed ... IN THE MIDDLE !

"Make periods in the midst of sentences"

"To shew our simple skill"

image.png.498f7850ceb8780c436d3682ef8bd9fa.png

Notice that the Prologue tells us all we need to know in order to find this simple message.

WILL IS HERE.

"That is the true beginning of our end"

The letters A and T may refer to Aleph and Tav , the Beginning and the End.

Now, WHO IS THIS "WILL" ?

WILL(IAM) SHAKESPEARE or WILL TUDOR or both of them ? 🙂

 I underlined "but all disordered" because I wonder if it could be an anagram concealing "tudor".

 

Back to the passage in Hamlet that you mentioned.

I think that you could be right with your idea of "FORTUNA".

Once again, I share ideas/ suggestions/( But maybe should I use now the word "infections" ? 😄)

This passage could have been modified between 1604 and 1623 in order to conceal more messages.

image.png.a56c67ec3078ca0a4ec847b6abf4efae.png

One of the loads of Hercules was the weight of the WORLD.

Right under "carry it" the word "Lord" and the "w" of "would" form the word WORLD.

And fortuna could , indeed, be a possibility that make sense.

Now, why Hercules and not Atlas instead ?

Could it be because of a link between Hercules and Fortuna that does not exist between Atlas and Fortuna ?

https://www.antiquarius.it/en/xvii-xviii-century-dutch-school/9457-vertu-mesure-du-bon-heur-hercules-fortuna.html

image.png.263ccf0944007dc16fe4fbbf9cdcb89d.png

I do not say that this is what was intended but a possibility, I share my thoughts.

Another important load of Hercules was the Two Pillars, the "Twin T".

https://collections.artsmia.org/art/124314/hercules-carrying-the-columns-of-gaza-sebald-beham

Could it be an invitation to find the two pillars (T.T.) ?

image.png.2fb0e7a24fd96180b77292f1dca49252.png

T.T. W. TUDOR -  Little Porke (Hamlet)

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35 minutes ago, Christie Waldman said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Alfred Dodd in The Personal Poems of Francis Bacon: Shakespeare's Sonnet Diary (Liverpool: Daily Post Printers, 1938) puts the Sonnets in a different order and explains his reasons for doing so. It might be interesting to view things in that order at some point, as well.

I’ve work with the four quarters rearranged. I agree each has a purpose, even as simple as the seasons matching.

To enrich the book makes a hellavu ending and it suggested. Maybe when I am on my PC later can explain. 😉

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1 hour ago, Christie Waldman said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Alfred Dodd in The Personal Poems of Francis Bacon: Shakespeare's Sonnet Diary (Liverpool: Daily Post Printers, 1938) puts the Sonnets in a different order and explains his reasons for doing so. It might be interesting to view things in that order at some point, as well.

I have the visual of Two Large T's which is how Dodd rearranged the Sonnets. I studied it, but funny I cannot find the image. I'll keep looking...

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Two easy ways to think of the Sonnets design are as a clock and a compass.

12:00 AM, Midnight with the compass pointing North the Sonnets begin with:

FRom fairest creatures we desire increase,

Line 1, Day 1, Sonnet 1. The cycle begins...

12:00 AM on my clock the hands points up, or North. For me, Midnight points North by default, both hands.

The end of Sonnet 77 is the Middle of the Sonnets it just came up in this thread. 77 Sonnets and then 77 more Sonnets to make 154. Easy math.

The last line of the first half of the Sonnets is the last Line of Sonnet 77 which is Line 1,078 of the Sonnets:

Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke.

So this Line is at the 6:00 place on a clock (5:59 and 59 seconds) and due South on a compass. Both hands down. I've yet to understand why this line is here, but may not need to.

The "Middle" of the first half is easy to find. On a clock I'd look for 3:00 O'clock or East on a compass. 

The Sonnets Pyramid design has 364 Days synced with the 154 Sonnets. The first half of the Sonnets has 182 Days and 77 Sonnets. The second half of the Sonnets has the same numbers. The 182 Days of each half can be divided in half to end up with 91 Days in each quarter.

The last Line of Day 91, ending the first quarter of the Sonnets is:

That by this seperation I may giue:

We'll revisit that, but what is the Line at 9:00 and West on the compass?

It is the star to euery wandring barke,

This is a very important Line (1618) in the Sonnets in a very important Sonnet (116).

OK, so let's think about this. To me the "star" should point North. So if we accept "That by this seperation I may give:" with the colon in the original and rotate the clock/compass by 90 degrees we have the "It is the star to euery wandring barke," at 11:59:59 PM on Day 364 to be the final Line of the Sonnets with both hands up and pointing true North.

That means the line, "Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke" would be at 9:00 (8:59:59) and pointing West.

Let me say this, I have explored four variations and they all work. It's like your can turn the clock and compass by 90 degrees and each arrangement has special surprises.

If we end the Sonnets with "Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke" at 11:59:59 PM, which fits into one scenario, then, "It is the star to euery wandring barke," is at 3:00 pointing East. I feel like Freemasons might like that idea. The Sun is a star, right? 😉

The Sonnets design is so amazing, even knowing what I know it blows my mind. I believe it is a lot older than Bacon and Shakespeare.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

The Sonnets Pyramid design has 364 Days synced with the 154 Sonnets. The first half of the Sonnets has 182 Days and 77 Sonnets. The second half of the Sonnets has the same numbers. The 182 Days of each half can be divided in half to end up with 91 Days in each quarter.

The last Line of Day 91, ending the first quarter of the Sonnets is:

That by this seperation I may giue:

We'll revisit that, but what is the Line at 9:00 and West on the compass?

It is the star to euery wandring barke,

This is a very important Line (1618) in the Sonnets in a very important Sonnet (116).

OK, so let's think about this. To me the "star" should point North. So if we accept "That by this seperation I may give:" with the colon in the original and rotate the clock/compass by 90 degrees we have the "It is the star to euery wandring barke," at 11:59:59 PM on Day 364 to be the final Line of the Sonnets with both hands up and pointing true North.

That means the line, "Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke" would be at 9:00 (8:59:59) and pointing West.

Let me say this, I have explored four variations and they all work. It's like your can turn the clock and compass by 90 degrees and each arrangement has special surprises.

If we end the Sonnets with "Shall profit thee,and much inrich thy booke" at 11:59:59 PM, which fits into one scenario, then, "It is the star to euery wandring barke," is at 3:00 pointing East. I feel like Freemasons might like that idea. The Sun is a star, right? 😉

The Sonnets design is so amazing, even knowing what I know it blows my mind. I believe it is a lot older than Bacon and Shakespeare.

WOW ! Thank you for sharing, Rob !🙏 That is very interesting.

The notion of Compass reminded me our discussion on the Rose of Winds and the "Phoenix" wind that is the South - South East wind.

741383158_DroeshoutPortrait.thumb.png.0d3eb42c575e37ab2204416fa0acdfbe.png

Following your suggestion, where is Phoenicias in the Sonnets, considering Shakespeare's Sonnets as a Compass ?

There are 2155 lines in total, which means that each half contains 1077,5 lines.

In passing, it means that the middle of the Book is in the middle of line 1077.😊

(177 is WILLIAM SHAKSPEARE simple cipher)

image.png.c96b13379023c7857a40ed05ac147362.png

1(0)77/1(0)78

Were is South - South East ?

1077.5 x (7/8) = 942.81 #  line 943

image.png.b5d1d9b982d9e2aa15f1719bd0386a6f.png

Rob, in your Pyramid, line 943 corresponds to the first line of day ... 160 ( 20 +40 +100).😊

Before the golden tresses of the dead,

The right of Sepulchres, were shorn away,

to live a second life on second head ;

Ere beauty's dead fleece made another gay:

ih him those holy antique hours are seen,

Without all ornament, itself and true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece

Notice that Sonnet 68 is the only Sonnet in which can be found (twice) the word "map".

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As an additional thought ...

Firstly, it reminded me the TT map found in acrostic of the dedication by Petter Admunsen, TT map that could point toward this Sonnet 68 , the only one using the word "map".

It also reminded me the 68 words of Ben Jonson's Poem "To the Reader" , with "WIT" that is the 33rd word.

image.png.c01010ff193373fa50479cd150642736.png

We could eventually consider that from Sonnet 1 to Sonnet 68, we have Sonnet 33 and 67 other Sonnets.

Sonnet 33 is one of the five Sonnets ( with Sonnet 68 ) in which the word "golden" is used.

I am surely not the first one to notice it, but I have just realized that Sonnet 33 is the only Sonnet in which "golden" was spelled "golden" and not "goulden".

https://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/search/search-results.php

Sonnet 3 : goulden time

Sonnet 7 : goulden pilgrimage

Sonnet 33 : golden face

Sonnet 68 goulden tresses of the dead

Sonnet 85 : goulden quill

33 = BACON (simple cipher)

3 + 7 + 33 + 68 = 111 = BACON (Kay cipher)

3 + 7 + 33 + 68 + 85 = 196 = VVILLIAM SHAKESPEARE (simple cipher)

Interesting facts:

In sonnet 3 , we can found the line 33 : "For where is she so fair whose unear'd womb", already mentioned by Rob.

In Sonnet 7 , Rob showed us yesterday that we could find the words "middle" and "way".

In Sonnet 33 , Rob discovered a possible reference to ELIZABETH TUDOR.

https://www.light-of-truth.com/baconlesson.htm

In sonnet 68 , we have a possible hidden reference to the "Golden fleece" and to someone who

live a second life on second head".

In Sonnet 85 , we have a "goulden quill" and the only "Amen" of the Sonnets.

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5 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

In sonnet 68 , we have a possible hidden reference to the "Golden fleece" and to someone who

live a second life on second head".

Your mention was the 4th today for me. By the second I was smiling at synchronicity!

I lose track, but I think below was the first as I am trying to grasp Dodd's order of the Sonnets.

image.png.64a08615996188f6999cc1bdace12b3d.png

"The personal poems of Francis Bacon"

"Shake-speare's Sonnet Diay"

ALFRED DODD EDITION

THE NINTH EDITION

Xerox copy by Lawrence Gerald in 1999. 😉

Notice Sonnet 68 is numbered 143 by Dodd. When I read this book soon as I received it the way the Sonnets were numbered meant nothing to me. I had not even read them yet. Dodd was my Sonnets introduction and that might explain a lot of where my work has gone.

Sonnet 143 in the 1609 printed order has been brought up here on the B'Hive several times and how it relates to QUEEN ELIZABETH. And here Alfred Dodd places Sonnet 68 in the number. Wow!

Sonnet 144 is also very important in both ways to order the poems. 😉

I may be back...

 

 

 

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Dodd introduced me to the Sonnets, and his influence is huge. I read the below today by him in a pamphlet he did for the FBS. Richard Wagner is another who suggests the Sonnets were not published in 1609. Maybe that is a Freemason thing. I generally dismiss the idea, but admit I have no clue and it is a curious idea. 😉

image.png.347d0f85c1704d21b741a2297ba13941.png

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On 5/26/2024 at 4:03 AM, Light-of-Truth said:

We see "heire" and "sonne" with the words "middle" and "way" contained. FR BACON is easy to see, and the first letters on the second page are LTFSV:

74 Simple, 51 Reverse, 20 Short, and 100 Kaye.

Hi Rob,

I did not have this Sonnet in mind when I composed my poem, but facing the Sonnet 6 (3+3 or 2+1+3) with the word "heire" at the end, and most of all with several "ten" echoing "The Alchemical (con)Quest", I wondered if the secret identity of this "heire" could have been concealed using Mediocria (The Middle way).

image.png.968ebfa7b3e84dfcae6a2971e5555c77.png

I noticed some interesting things from an arithmetical point of view ...

image.png.264ca16d8e64a58bf6d879df09a908ac.png

F.BAC.

"ten" + "ten" + "one" + "ten" + "ten" + "ten" = 51

The 51th word of the poem is "breed", almost in the center, and its simple cipher is ... 33 !

And by counting "self-wild" as one word, there are 62 words from "breed" to "heire".

62 # F.B. (for Francis Bacon)

Then, I noticed the anagram of "worme" vertically, next to "breed".

Always the same principle (repetition) ...

"worme" (like 'dorade' previously or "heyre" in Sonnet 1) provides us with a vertical guiding line to follow.

image.png.e71ed5cdc99f90d8b2a18738e3434bf5.png

And here is what I found ... THE HEIRE ! 😊

image.png.53f95e4d32735c10697d2a187ec9fa72.png

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

Hi Rob,

I did not have this Sonnet in mind when I composed my poem, but facing the Sonnet 6 (3+3 or 2+1+3) with the word "heire" at the end, and most of all with several "ten" echoing "The Alchemical (con)Quest", I wondered if the secret identity of this "heire" could have been concealed using Mediocria (The Middle way).

image.png.968ebfa7b3e84dfcae6a2971e5555c77.png

I noticed some interesting things from an arithmetical point of view ...

image.png.264ca16d8e64a58bf6d879df09a908ac.png

F.BAC.

"ten" + "ten" + "one" + "ten" + "ten" + "ten" = 51

The 51th word of the poem is "breed", almost in the center, and its simple cipher is ... 33 !

And by counting "self-wild" as one word, there are 62 words from "breed" to "heire".

62 # F.B. (for Francis Bacon)

Then, I noticed the anagram of "worme" vertically, next to "breed".

Always the same principle (repetition) ...

"worme" (like 'dorade' previously or "heyre" in Sonnet 1) provides us with a vertical guiding line to follow.

image.png.e71ed5cdc99f90d8b2a18738e3434bf5.png

And here is what I found ... THE HEIRE ! 😊

image.png.53f95e4d32735c10697d2a187ec9fa72.png

The lost heir is also you, so don't forget to write yourself in. The lost inheritance awaits you in heaven. Follow John the Baptist in birth to the Cross in death.  Remember your coming death.  Mind the straight and narrow path (the middle way) on which angels travel. Take Herge's word for it if you like presented mysteries. This is the main theme of the TT mystery.  We are all princes and princesses. The King is God. His son who was mistreated and not given his rightful title while living was Christ. Your quest is the pilgrim's progress. 

The Tudors are famous for having reinvented God to fit their worldviews for all the variations it has spawned. We still have to contend with it. It brought the old Testament back to the forefront to offer an opposing view to the edicts of the Roman Church who put all its stock in the New Testament which excluded the Jews (and perhaps even scapegoated them for having killed Christ).  How is not everything we keep finding not making allusion to this? How could we discount this in favor of thinking that all the religious symbolism we encounter is actually telling us who wrote Shakespeare?

Your not so secret code given in terms of cod fish at times informs you about how to get to heaven. You will be fished like mackerel just like the lambs were brought home by the almighty shepherd in Arcadia. There were many proponents of this who could have conspired to pass on this message to you. There were not many who knew Bacon was Shakespeare as the cat would have been out of the bag a long time ago, presumably. The fury in exposing this would have been strong in early times when more people would have driven the intrigue. We know it only really took off as a suggestion in the 19th century at teh same time the craze for "discovering" things in texts also appeared. It does not compute. What computes is that someone like Bacon may have been esteemed for his faith towards God and England. 

 

Edited by RoyalCraftiness
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

Hi Rob,

I did not have this Sonnet in mind when I composed my poem, but facing the Sonnet 6 (3+3 or 2+1+3) with the word "heire" at the end, and most of all with several "ten" echoing "The Alchemical (con)Quest", I wondered if the secret identity of this "heire" could have been concealed using Mediocria (The Middle way).

image.png.968ebfa7b3e84dfcae6a2971e5555c77.png

I noticed some interesting things from an arithmetical point of view ...

image.png.264ca16d8e64a58bf6d879df09a908ac.png

F.BAC.

"ten" + "ten" + "one" + "ten" + "ten" + "ten" = 51

The 51th word of the poem is "breed", almost in the center, and its simple cipher is ... 33 !

And by counting "self-wild" as one word, there are 62 words from "breed" to "heire".

62 # F.B. (for Francis Bacon)

Then, I noticed the anagram of "worme" vertically, next to "breed".

Always the same principle (repetition) ...

"worme" (like 'dorade' previously or "heyre" in Sonnet 1) provides us with a vertical guiding line to follow.

image.png.e71ed5cdc99f90d8b2a18738e3434bf5.png

And here is what I found ... THE HEIRE ! 😊

image.png.53f95e4d32735c10697d2a187ec9fa72.png

"Quote me: I am a dwarf".  A small star maybe?

Was Bacon 51 inches tall when he was a fair youth of 6? 51 mm is almost exactly 2 inches, so maybe we are talking about composting worms here? 1.5 inches to 3 inches is the average adult male red wiggler.

The AI tells me that we reach the height of 4 feet 3 inches around the age of 6-7 for boys. Too coincidental to not be what is being referred to, wouldn't you say?

If Bacon is preaching to not let death's conquest make the worms one's heirs why did he die without children? Do as a I say, and not as a I do? He must have died feeling he was a failure. That is if I am unaware of the ten children he had with his ten mistresses across Europe in his many parallel lives. 

Geometrically speaking, The 51-gon is constructible by compass and square, because it is made up of two Fermat primes. This means that cos (pi/51) is expressible as a ratio in an expression containing the square root of an integer (like a triangle of side 1, 1 has a hypothenuse of sqrt (2)

It is a pentagonal number, additionally a centered pentagonal number (has a dot in the middle which is the monad center whose associated number is 6).

There are 51 ways to draw non intersecting chords between any 6 points on a circle. 

Interestingly 51 is an 18-gonal number which is sandwiched in between 18 and 100 (18 and 100 being of interest to me).

51's digital sum is 6. 

51 in hexadecimal is 33 which is of course the number we attribute to Brahe which I see clustered next to worme there.

The 6th planet from the Sun is Saturn.

A Great Conjunction (rarest of the visible planets) occurs when Saturn an Mars appear together. That happens approximately every 20 years. The last very precise Great Conjunction (which are quite rare) occurred in the year 2020. Fine year for a pandemic it was, lol. 

In terms of the zodiac, successive Great Conjunctions reoccur approximately 1/3 of the cycle apart. This was appreciated by Brahe, Kepler and Galileo. 

Kepler's Great Trigon illustration scheme from De Stella Nova, published in 1606:

LfwAZyz.jpg

The one corresponding to the date 1603 is highlighted with a star (extinguishing of the Nova of 1600). We can see the movement of the GC in the sky in periods of about 20 years. The other date that is signaled here (unsure about the associated symbols) is the last one shown, 1763.  This, for what it is worth is the date which is the beginning of the Oak Island story (arrival of the Rhode island Planters that will start off the new British colonial era/cycle in North America). 40 years after this was the alleged discovery of the stone which was the omen of the end times which was foretold to occur 40 years after that in 1843 (became the Great Disappointment, lol). The date would appear on this illustration if it had gone into the next Great Trigon. A Great Trigon is ten Great Conjunctions. The one shown started off in Pisces and ended in Aries. Kepler fancied himself as God's personal astronomer, so there was much conjecture amount the meaning of these celestial events. Roger Bacon wrote about the Great Conjunctions. 

If the Sonnets are to have an alchemical meaning one would have to assume they would be attuned with the currents of astronomical thinking that existed around 1609. It might explain why the Sonnets is given structurally in terms of a great cycle of time symbolized by 365 days. It might be of interest to see what is found associated with thirds of the cycle. Ten thirds is 10/3 or 3.33333...The symbolic significance of the 3 is probably what underpinned the length of the Great Trigon (duration=220 years). If Brahe is 33 then there are ten tens (thirds) in his name indeed. 

 

 

Edited by RoyalCraftiness
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5 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

The Tudors are famous for having reinvented God to fit their worldviews for all the variations it has spawned. We still have to contend with it. It brought the old Testament back to the forefront to offer an opposing view to the edicts of the Roman Church who put all its stock in the New Testament which excluded the Jews (and perhaps even scapegoated them for having killed Christ).  How is not everything we keep finding not making allusion to this? How could we discount this in favor of thinking that all the religious symbolism we encounter is actually telling us who wrote Shakespeare?

I suspect it was Dee who manipulated Bacon's story being born of a Virgin totally Sealed with Elizabeth's Seal numbers (huh?) of 157 and 287. But I have no proof, just an opinion poking around here for a few years.

Religion is something that kind of turns me off. All the control, the rules and the rulers, guilt and blame, the lies and hypocrisy, so on. Yet I cannot deny that Bacon's life may have been an orchestrated living Virgin Birth to Queen Elizabeth fable. Perhaps not just Bacon, who was an amazing person, but an entire collection of English minds were rewriting the bible as they were to do one day to actually rewrite the KJV. Shakespeare is the product of that play.

In Bacon's lifetime his friends hinted and joked about among themselves and in public in print. Then it was forgotten for decades. Now we are starting to understand more about Bacon's life and how tragic it is he was born into a story he had so little control over.

 

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3 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

If Bacon is preaching to not let death's conquest make the worms one's heirs why did he die without children?

I believe he actually was clinging onto hope that he would become King of England. It was who he was born, in my opinion. Read the Sonnets and that is the story being told with emotion.

Elizabeth kept enough hope alive in Bacon that he never dared to have a child. Yet in the Sonnets it is clear he wanted to "print more". Edward de Weird did not have that kind of personal restraint, at all. I can't imagine how Bacon maintained his public image as anyone but Shakespeare and the Tudor Prince of England.

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11 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I believe he actually was clinging onto hope that he would become King of England. It was who he was born, in my opinion. Read the Sonnets and that is the story being told with emotion.

Elizabeth kept enough hope alive in Bacon that he never dared to have a child. Yet in the Sonnets it is clear he wanted to "print more". Edward de Weird did not have that kind of personal restraint, at all. I can't imagine how Bacon maintained his public image as anyone but Shakespeare and the Tudor Prince of England.

Can a philosopher be a King? Can a King be a philosopher? Heir or not, he wasn't cut out of the right cloth to be a King of England. What is required of one is the propensity for deception, manipulation, callousness and overall power lust. Kings must have their enemies executed before they strike. The ends justify the means. It would seem Bacon was too much of an idealist and a reformer of people to have been a strong leader.

Look at the rabble in the US today. Do they not salivate for a strong leader with blood lust? Do they seek the intellectual with moderate ways to lead them? They turn to the great liars and spreaders of deception and intolerance.  Bacon would have been like Jimmy Carter, a kind man of faith detested by his own faction for his willingness to want to change their ways. Besides, he supported King James. Men like Bacon prefer to have their heads in books, wouldn't you say? As a supporting statesman he was in a good role.

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12 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I suspect it was Dee who manipulated Bacon's story being born of a Virgin totally Sealed with Elizabeth's Seal numbers (huh?) of 157 and 287. But I have no proof, just an opinion poking around here for a few years.

Religion is something that kind of turns me off. All the control, the rules and the rulers, guilt and blame, the lies and hypocrisy, so on. Yet I cannot deny that Bacon's life may have been an orchestrated living Virgin Birth to Queen Elizabeth fable. Perhaps not just Bacon, who was an amazing person, but an entire collection of English minds were rewriting the bible as they were to do one day to actually rewrite the KJV. Shakespeare is the product of that play.

In Bacon's lifetime his friends hinted and joked about among themselves and in public in print. Then it was forgotten for decades. Now we are starting to understand more about Bacon's life and how tragic it is he was born into a story he had so little control over.

 

How do you know he was an amazing person? Notoriety? Do you credit the works of Shakespeare and others to him to come to that conclusion? What was he if he did not write those? What I assume endeared him to his closest buddies, like Rawley, was his flawless Christian faith and tolerance. But did he live by what he preached? If you do not see value in religion then what did Bacon ever do to earn his accolades? It's his vision as a statesman that seems to have been apart from that of others. He wasn't an experimentalist in the natural sciences, but he seems to have collected many observations from others. 

Such a man, if he was to show up and run for politics today, ought not be too well supported. No one would tolerate to be governed by a Christian ideologue except for the far right who keep strange bedfellows to the point of being openly dissonant. The science and technology people would generally not have his back, and he'd be called reactionary in his ways. No one would agree that he was amazing or not.

At the surface there is no obvious influence between Dee and Bacon. Dee and Elizabeth were a matched pair (a master of suggestion + a highly suggestible individual). It appears that Brahe and Kepler had more of an influence on him than Dee did when it comes to the planets and cosmology. Bacon doesn't appear to be a fan of Enochian magic, does he? 

We can imagine anything. Our imagination is guided only by our biases which are informed by the public relations sciences. Bacon was not an alchemist. He was in the line of Paracelsus who more or less mocked lesser alchemists for their con artistry. What there does appear to be traces of in the structure of the Sonnets is the Christian flavor of early astronomy influenced by German mysticism. 

Nevertheless, he is considered a great statesman and an important philosopher. Are these the contributions you measure him by? I'm not a big fan of English Philosophy. It delivered us modern economic thinking which is a disaster. It treats the world as a God given gift to man for him to exploit for his pursuit of happiness. It's the philosophy of irresponsibility towards nature and blind faith in a divine plan which accommodates our complete ruin and almost invites an end times. We fail today to the degree that we are stuck in these old ways of thinking.  For his expansionist views, those who try and send us to the heavenly bodies to live there might have an ally. I would assume the crew of the USS Enterprise would agree. Keep going West young man. Find the great Occidental star and set your bearing to it. Head to the stars and return to the father.  Can you not see how we are all stuck in this grand arching narrative? How do we escape it?

Bacon was no Alan Watts, lol.

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21 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

edicts of the Roman Church who put all its stock in the New Testament which excluded the Jews (and perhaps even scapegoated them for having killed Christ)

I beg to differ with you. The New Testament of the Bible did not exclude the Jews or scapegoat them. PLease be more careful with your language. The New Testament plainly states that the Gospel, the good news, was for everyone. St. Paul was "a Jew" (though that term did not yet exist) before his conversion. Jesus Christ himself was born into the Jewish faith.

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5 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

Can a philosopher be a King? Can a King be a philosopher? Heir or not, he wasn't cut out of the right cloth to be a King of England. What is required of one is the propensity for deception, manipulation, callousness and overall power lust. Kings must have their enemies executed before they strike. The ends justify the means. It would seem Bacon was too much of an idealist and a reformer of people to have been a strong leader.

I believe Bacon would have been a great King, and should have been. He may have been born with Elizabeth's intelligence via DNA. I'm not convinced that Dee was not his father, although that is a very unpopular idea in the Baconian world. Yet, if true, to have the most intelligent man alive as King would have been good.

CJ, we cannot compare what is happening today with what was happening 400 years ago. We may be able to make connections, but we live in a very different time.

400 years ago Spain in the name of Catholic goals was very aggressive in taking over the world. They wanted all the GOLD, right. At some point the English took TOBACCO, OPIUM, and OIL. Am I wrong? Could be.

Your world paranoia is becoming more pronounced. I have to wonder if you are attempting to turn our B'Hive Bacon/Shakespeare discussion into a political/religious topic that is motivated more by your own fear and insecurities than your vast knowledge. It's not that I don't share some of your perceptions, the New Atlantis is at risk of losing Bacon's platform for peace and equality. But in the 60's and 70's it was crazy too, and you are old enough to remember. We survived that.

In my 20's I never thought we'd see the year 2000. Clearly a nuclear war would have blown away life on Earth, and the Bible predicted it. LOL

Or maybe, because I know you are very sly, by trying to make Bacon out to be a religious icon of a single belief system you hope to be more successful in creating confusion than you were by denying our cipher ideas that will not go away? 😉

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

Can you not see how we are all stuck in this grand arching narrative? How do we escape it?

There must be some kind of way outta here. 😉

One of my top few synchronicity events in my entire life involved a John Dee book and some Watchtowers in my view. It was on a day when I was trying to send messages back to Dee using 1881, and a book was handed to me as a surprise. Who else connects Dee to the Watchtowers?

image.png.ea3be4b1c2d408a89609ffccf9c98c42.png

 

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23 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

"Quote me: I am a dwarf".  A small star maybe?

Was Bacon 51 inches tall when he was a fair youth of 6? 51 mm is almost exactly 2 inches, so maybe we are talking about composting worms here? 1.5 inches to 3 inches is the average adult male red wiggler.

The AI tells me that we reach the height of 4 feet 3 inches around the age of 6-7 for boys. Too coincidental to not be what is being referred to, wouldn't you say?

Hi CJ,

I would say that in "Quote me : I am a dwarf." you used 3 times the letter "a" (two too many) and that at that time "dwarfe" was spelled with a final letter "e".

But thanks to you I learned a new word in English : dwarfish, that fit perfectly into the "fish" theme ! 😄

And I would say that if bacon was a dwarf he was a gyant dwarfe.

This is a reference to "Love's Labor's Lost".

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/Bran_F1/147/index.html%3fzoom=1200.html

Looking for the spelling of "dwarf" used by Shakespeare in the First Folio, I noticed an error in "gyant drawfe".

I like to think that this is not an error but an invitation to "draw" something but what ? Maybe a constellation ! 🙂 

Then, I noticed the word half vertically.

Interestingly , there are many ways to form the name "BACON".

Rob, one synchronicity for you, notice "dee" right above "night-watch". 😉

image.png.a74162da9cb16eeeb97176344f821e6c.png

And talking about the "Fish" theme, I noticed "Cod", peeces or piscis ?, "Sole".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sole_(fish)

Is there another fishes in disguise in this scene ?

image.png.eb82afb8a6c4132adeafacba6e136884.png

"Gardon" that stands for "guerden" meaning "reward" is also the French name of a Fish, the Roach. 🙂 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_roach

I wonder whether Shakespeare used  "Gardon" instead of Guerden in order to hide "Don Gar".

That could explain why he talks about "Don Cupid", to put us on the path, "Don" meaning Lord.

image.png.9718033d3e9e6afc37278e6b379a55ee.png

And I remind you that Gar, meaning "spear" is the 33rd and last rune of the Anglo-saxon Futhark.

Gardon -> Don Gar -> Lord 33 (Spear) -> Lord Bacon (Spear) ?

Thus, the message concealed by the clown could be ...

Francis Bacon (33) - Lord Bacon (Spear)

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Hi all!

I've clearly missed out on some important discussion!

I wish I could be more active on the forums (and, quite honestly, I probably can)... anyhow, I'll take the time tonight and tomorrow to skim this whole thread and post my thoughts. In the meantime, here's a distinctly Masonic puzzle for you to solve:

circle-images-12.jpg

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On 5/30/2024 at 2:00 AM, Marvin Haines said:

Hi all!

I've clearly missed out on some important discussion!

I wish I could be more active on the forums (and, quite honestly, I probably can)... anyhow, I'll take the time tonight and tomorrow to skim this whole thread and post my thoughts. In the meantime, here's a distinctly Masonic puzzle for you to solve:

circle-images-12.jpg

Hi Marvin,

Here are some ideas !

Evidently, I noticed the 33 words as a reference to BACON.

There are 23 points in total ( two 3 ?)

There are 22 "stars".

Francis Bacon was born the 22nd of January 1561 .

Sarah Winchester died in 19 ... 22.

We know your passion for LLANADA VILLA, the House on the Plain or the HOUSE ON FLAT LAND.

It could explain your choice to play with the "flat earth" concept.

Now, what about the meaning of the "stars".

Here is my idea. 😅

I think that you decided to hide the letter W (Cassiopeia) and S that stand for WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE ...

image.png.fbd84fc25ca8bccd502a367e042f26f8.png

 ... and that from there, you add some lines in order to conceal the letters that spell the name WINCHESTER in reference to SARAH WINCHESTER and the WINCHESTER MYSTERY HOUSE.

image.png.fd0ad2a1c0f73f15f077138b9c4168d1.png

This being said, maybe I'm completely off base on this.😄

Anyway, here is something allowing to ensure that all this fit in with "The Alchemical Quest" Topic ! 😊

https://www.foodgal.com/2023/06/exploring-southern-oregon-alchemy-restaurant-and-the-winchester-inn/

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5 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

Anyway, here is something allowing to ensure that all this fit in with "The Alchemical Quest" Topic ! 😊

https://www.foodgal.com/2023/06/exploring-southern-oregon-alchemy-restaurant-and-the-winchester-inn/

Fun article!

Ashland, OR. — Its moniker may be inspired by San Jose’s Winchester Mystery House because of its expansion in fits and starts over the years, but unlike its namesake the Winchester Inn is as far from kitschy and haphazard as it gets.

Down further...

The inn is ideally situated if you want to be able to walk downtown easily or take in performances at the Oregon Shakespeare Theater, which is a mere two blocks away. Let your server at Alchemy know that you’re attending a show, and they will ensure you get done in plenty of time.

The food pictures alone have me. If I ever passed through Oregon I will stay at the Winchester Mystery House there. 😉

EDIT:

OMG! I want the octopus, but every food slide is amazing. What a beautiful website, beyond my one person skill. 😉

https://www.winchesterinn.com/ashland-oregon-dining-at-alchemy-restaurant-and-bar

 

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Yann -

You are Amazing. Too amazing, if you ask me...

I didn't notice the 33 words. Fate?

Also, I didn't notice the S and W in the constellation. Fate?

The image is really inspired by the Masonic "Point within a Circle."

Try extending a line from the central dot through each star and onto the circle of text, and you'll see something quite alarming!

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