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Who is in the "MONVMENT" and "decks" this tombe?


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11 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I never looked before right now...

https://www.light-of-truth.com/ciphers.html

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I suggested in a post above that since READ IF THOU CANST, WHOM ENVIOVS DEATH HATH PLAST, WITH IN THIS MONVMENT SHAKSPEARE: is ungrammatical (there is no punctuation between MONVMENT and SHAKSPEARE), we could make it grammatical by reading the S in Shakespeare as a genitive:

READ IF THOU CANST, WHOM ENVIOVS DEATH HATH PLAST, WITH IN THIS MONVMENT’S HA

I pointed out how WITH IN THIS MO = WIT HINT H IS M O hints at a Caecar-cipher making HA into ME. But I presented no reason why the reading should end at HA, other than that HA are the initials of Hiram Abif, and that the HA --> ME substitution matches the hint, and makes sense as the puzzle-maker (Bacon) telling us that he is HA.

The fact that READ IF THOU CANST = 157, establishes a numerical reason to end at HA, since  the last letter in HA is letter number 157 counted from the beginning of the inscription (ligatures counted as one letter):

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Notice how we find O ME immediately above HA, where the O could signal a cipher:

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Edited by Hen. W.
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6 hours ago, Hen. W. said:

I suggested in a post above that since READ IF THOU CANST, WHOM ENVIOVS DEATH HATH PLAST, WITH IN THIS MONVMENT SHAKSPEARE: is ungrammatical (there is no punctuation between MONVMENT and SHAKSPEARE), we could make it grammatical by reading the S in Shakespeare as a genitive:

READ IF THOU CANST, WHOM ENVIOVS DEATH HATH PLAST, WITH IN THIS MONVMENT’S HA

I pointed out how WITH IN THIS MO = WIT HINT H IS M O hints at a Caecar-cipher making HA into ME. But I presented no reason why the reading should end at HA, other than that HA are the initials of Hiram Abif, and that the HA --> ME substitution matches the hint, and makes sense as the puzzle-maker (Bacon) telling us that he is HA.

 

Many heads together looking at this is always going to be better than one. You're doing great work and sparking all sorts of avenues of exploration. I'm going  to keep working with the Dugdale version as it's so close to the  date of the erection of the monument but,, as Rob says, maybe both hold something of value.  Even if you came up with a perfect decryption though, it's never, imo, going to pass the 'test' if one had to add a letter to the inscription to get there.

Have you tried moving the letters by 22 - or can you. On both inscriptions. Here's why:

image.png.ca0558ceefdd5e0b01da9a3abcad8e30.png

Edited by Kate
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22 hours ago, peethagoras said:

The reason I made the point about Rosicrucians is that I have been trying like mad to find a relationship between Rosicrucians and a symbol I came across which is a serpent on a tau cross. To be a little more precise, the symbol has been placed with great care, and its a serpent directly on a T cross. If you have any info I would love to see it.

 

HI P

Because snakes shed their entire skin they have always been a symbol of transformation and transmutation. As the Mystery Schools are all about transformation from ignorance to light, serpents came to symbolise this.  All symbols have multiple meanings and in some cases they can be referring to the Milky Way which snakes its way across or down in the sky depending on where and when you view it. Also the constellation Serpens crosses it. Wrapped around the Tau cross  though, which is a symbol of truth, it conveys the whole Rosicrucian 'mission' of  Light (knowledge/truth) from  Darkness (ignorance and there are deeper esoteric and alchemical symbolisms too. The Ouroborus is different as that forms a circle. Then there's the two serpents wrapped around the staff which symbolise Mercury.

K

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Kate: "it's never, imo, going to pass the 'test' if one had to add a letter to the inscription to get there.". Which letter are you thinking about? 

Kate: "Have you tried moving the letters by 22?" - There is a rather clear hint in the inscription that we should use a 4-step Caecar-cipher: WIT HINT H IS M O. Do you see any hints in the inscription to the effect that we should use any of the methods described in the passage you pasted? 

Edited by Hen. W.
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6 minutes ago, Hen. W. said:

Kate: "it's never, imo, going to pass the 'test' if one had to add a letter to the inscription to get there.". Which letter are you thinking about? 

A thousand apologies. I was speed reading, it's the S from the first 3 words of shakespeare. I thought you'd added one. In modern Masonry the abbreviation for Hiram Abif is HAB but maybe HA is equally valid at that time. 

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Kate: "In modern Masonry the abbreviation for Hiram Abif is HAB but maybe HA is equally valid at that time.". It seems to me that names in these puzzles are quite consistently representet by initials, as in W.H. and T.T. in the Sonnets-dedication, and B.I. first in the First Folio.

Edited by Hen. W.
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Hi Hen

Yes, I agree. I did look today and found a whole set of Masonic ritual using just HA as well, so both were used.

Looking at the inscription I was particularly drawn to a grid cipher due to the 64 words, which are only possible if the word Within is separated out - which it is.  The 4 boxed Ts reinforced that grid idea…

IMG_2205.jpeg.546d947e99d5f09e7f938b650a64ea59.jpeg

If looking at this newer one they jump out at me. 

Everything points to two and to doubles, Two words before each comma in each part of the first two lines. Two Ts in Terra Tegit. Two sections to the main inscription, and two lots of TT + TT in the last corner.

The reason I suggested looking at a 22 space transposition is because it’s double numbers, and due to its link to Kabbalah plus TT can stand for Twenty Two as well as Thirty Three.

However, Dugdale doesn’t have the 2 sets of TTs in the last line and also this afternoon I remembered something else.  When I went to check it’s really thrown the cat amongst the pigeons!

Firstly, here’s what John Weever is said to have written in his unpublished notes when compiling his book on funerary monuments prior to 1631 – which precedes Dugdale’s. Like Dugdale he doesn’t use plast but does have four boxed Ts to end with, an e on both whoms and has within as one word. So unfortunately that makes it 63 words not 64. There are other small differences too.

I know AP has referenced this version from Weever in the past so a shout out to him. As it was unpublished by Weever it didn’t seem relevant about the slight word changes, but now it does.

Here it is:

  Iudcio Pilum, Genio Socratem, Arte Maronem
    Terra tegit, populus maeret, Olympus habet.
  Stay Passenger, why goest thou by so fast
  Read if your canst whome envious death hath plac'd
  Within this monument Shakespeare with whome
  Quick Nature dy'd whose name doth deck his Tombe
  far more then cost, sith all yt hee hath writt
  Leaves living Art but page to serve his witt.
    ob Ano doi 1616 AEtat. 53. 24 die April

It means there are 3 different inscriptions.

(and It all rather throws Alan Green’s or was it Alex Waugh’s attempted decryption of the ‘Curse be’ gravestone into doubt too doesn’t it?)


  Good frend for Iesus sake forbeare
  To digg the dust enclosed heare
  Blest bee ye man that spares these stones
  And curst bee hee that moves my bones.

 

But here’s the second thing I found. This old photograph from 1890 shows the newer bust of Shakespeare and the inscription. What I noticed is you can see the right hand side of the words in the main section all line up. They don’t line up here - the T on plast stands further out. 
 

The plot thickens! 

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2 hours ago, Kate said:

Hi Hen

Yes, I agree. I did look today and found a whole set of Masonic ritual using just HA as well, so both were used.

Looking at the inscription I was particularly drawn to a grid cipher due to the 64 words, which are only possible if the word Within is separated out - which it is.  The 4 boxed Ts reinforced that grid idea…

IMG_2205.jpeg.546d947e99d5f09e7f938b650a64ea59.jpeg

WHOM is 55 Simple cipher. Didn't I recently read about Sonnet 55 referring to Hiram Abiff (or Abif)? 🙂

 

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T A A A A A A A A A A A T
157     www.Light-of-Truth.com     287
<-- 1 8 8 1 1
O 1 1 8 8 1 -->

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Kate: "This old photograph from 1890 shows the newer bust of Shakespeare and the inscription. What I noticed is you can see the right hand side of the words in the main section all line up. "

The image is quite blurry. Below I have placed the 1890-image next to another old image. I don’t know when the other image was taken, but my point is that this other image has PLAST further out in the right margin, and that comparing the right margin of the two images, they may very well be of the exact same inscription. It might even be possible to glimpse the outlines of a T far to the right in the 1890-image (Since  the dark area between L and A in PLAST can be seen in both images, the image from 1890 would only spell PLAS, if there is no T out in the margin).

image.png.ef315ecb834231cc3c30ba2dcd80c5bb.png

Edited by Hen. W.
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Yes, great job. I can see it is there for sure on the black and white one and can see exactly what you mean. So that's one hurdle out of the way, but still doesn't remove the others.

By the 1800s the authorship questions had really gained a life of its own. I think what you and Peethagoras are saying is that if any cipher is present it may have been put there at a later date, so the newest one is the one to go with. Who knows - that's the issue. Do we go with the earlier one (s) or the later? The message is not substantially changed at all in any but in terms of decrypting it makes a world of difference if one is using all the letters and words.  I did notice thanks to Peethagoras posting the very clear, newer one, the engraver has used some significantly larger letters, so perhaps we should try the biliteral cipher too.

Some people spend their Sunday doing the Times Crossword, I love whiling away the time with a coffee and a mystery to solve and an inscription to decrypt! :-)Inscription.png.778f2cbcd7c7da60cbd737e0bf2ba9e1.png

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Kate: "I think what you and Peethagoras are saying is that if any cipher is present it may have been put there at a later date, so the newest one is the one to go with. " - No, I think the inscription we see today is the same that was made sometime before 1623. By implication, I don't think Dugdale's rendering is accurate.

The large letters are a mystery. But the biliteral cipher doesn't seem to give any results.

Edited by Hen. W.
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Btw an interesting little tit bit that I came across somewhere in recent months, and now can't recall where, is that the joined TH can be a way of expressing/hiding reference to Thrice Hermes i.e. an allusion to Mercury again. It's already very Masonic as the interlocking TH in the triple Tau links back to the words Temple Hierosolyma.

It was very common to use the interlocking TH in that era in inscriptions though, so one has to be careful, but here on "Shakespeare's" Monument (newer version) it might (or might not) have added significance.

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I'll go with your last suggestion. I think a main point of referring to Hiram Abif is to reference the Temple in Jerusalem, which, according to legend, Abif helped build, and where he ultimately died and was buried.

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4 hours ago, Hen. W. said:

By implication, I don't think Dugdale's rendering is accurate.

Myself, I think I need to go with Dugdale's as it is the best we have. It would be an interesting question to explore though.

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T A A A A A A A A A A A T
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<-- 1 8 8 1 1
O 1 1 8 8 1 -->

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9 hours ago, Kate said:

Yes, great job. I can see it is there for sure on the black and white one and can see exactly what you mean. So that's one hurdle out of the way, but still doesn't remove the others.

By the 1800s the authorship questions had really gained a life of its own. I think what you and Peethagoras are saying is that if any cipher is present it may have been put there at a later date, so the newest one is the one to go with. Who knows - that's the issue. Do we go with the earlier one (s) or the later? The message is not substantially changed at all in any but in terms of decrypting it makes a world of difference if one is using all the letters and words.  I did notice thanks to Peethagoras posting the very clear, newer one, the engraver has used some significantly larger letters, so perhaps we should try the biliteral cipher too.

Some people spend their Sunday doing the Times Crossword, I love whiling away the time with a coffee and a mystery to solve and an inscription to decrypt! :-)Inscription.png.778f2cbcd7c7da60cbd737e0bf2ba9e1.png

Hi Kate,

"I love whiling away the time with a coffee and a mystery to solve and an inscription to decrypt!"  Ditto !😊

There is also the I of Iudicio and the T of Terra.

I share with you some months ago one interesting solution for the 6 letters on top forming MORTIS if we consider the P of Pylium as the Greek letter P that is our R.

Notice that there is also the AE of AETATIS.

 

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Thanks Yann. Very interesting. 

I am right in the thick of more synchronicities. One involves you. 

The first was I stumbled across this booklet that goes into more depth about the monuments in the Church than I’d ever found before. It’s a “must look at” booklet as even the Stratford Society who wrote it obviously are suspicious as to whether Will Shakespeare is in the Church - look at page 33(!)for example 

https://www.stratfordsociety.co.uk/files/A-Taste-of-History.pdfIMG_2240.jpeg.9b9f25930c1f9c6c96ea6ccc7ec6e164.jpeg


Also, see this:IMG_2239.jpeg.95c099e7818e612bd494231913670003.jpeg

https://archive.org/details/howshakespearess00warw/page/n3/mode/1up

The next coincidence that may be something to ponder is, when researching Ashmole recently I visited John Aubrey’s book. I think I posted about this elsewhere but it bears repetition here. In it he cites the story about Ben Jonson’s friendship with ‘Butcher’s son’, Shakespeare and lists an epitaph that (it appears) Shakespeare composed. I took a screenshot IMG_2071.jpeg.3ef5903e036e71daffa94e6bb2ea499a.jpeg

I was struck by this as it has the same sort of ‘who is really in this grave’ feel to it. Then I saw your recent post about Ben Jonson where you had added a little known poem of his, Yann. In that poem Jonson mentions scissors and Combe.


Here it is:

IMG_2254.jpeg.8331229c26fb0f2cc30ff9c94bf8490a.jpeg

That got me thinking about Tombe and whome on Shakespeare’s monument which it turns out is right next to Combe’s monument. In fact it was while looking for details of Combe’s monument that I came across the PDF above.

In the booklet the short ditty is slightly different again. (Btw, notice in it they praise the accuracy of Dugdale’s recordings of inscriptions).

Also see this https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Epitaphs_on_John_Combe

The interesting thing is Combe’s full and lengthy inscription on his tomb is unfinished - according (again) to that Stratford PDF. 

It’s all very odd. I wonder if there’s a clue/pointer to this mystery about the monument lying in plain sight that we’ve all overlooked for centuries? Especially as Ben Jonson is linked to both. Notice too we can date this tavern meeting with Shakespeare because Combes died in 1614 and Shakespeare supposedly in 1616. That means there’s less than 2 years that this conversation above could have taken place. Does that tally with reports?

As if this wasn’t lengthy enough, on top of all this, earlier this morning  I decided to clear out an old box in my office. In it, not only did I find an old 2009 page of a letter sent to me from the (female) publisher of  the booklet about Bacon by Marie Bauer Hall, Manly P Hall’s wife. She was talking to me about Oak Island, William Stirling and Nova Scotia (but there’s only 1 page of it and I can’t find the rest), but there was also a print out of an email from Peter Dawkins dating back 15 years. 

In this he was telling me about Hiram!

You can’t make it up. I never went looking so it’s another extraordinary synchronicity given the conversations further above about Hiram Abif(f). Here’s the relevant bit which I’m sure he won’t mind me sharing.IMG_2253.jpeg.d8b740b4269951f4631966b44c25eebc.jpeg

End!

Edited by Kate
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6 hours ago, Kate said:

Thanks Yann. Very interesting. 

I am right in the thick of more synchronicities. One involves you. 

Thanks kate ! Very interesting indeed ! 😃

Talking about synchronicities, right before to read your post and to discover the cover of "How Shakespeare's Skull was stolen and found", my research led me one more time to Act 3 scene 3 of Henry IV part 1. 😉 

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/SLNSW_F1/384/?work=&zoom=1275

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Love it! 
 

By the way, the rest of the Oak Island pages showed up from my old box. I’ll post about it elsewhere at some point.  It was the lovely Judith Lavigne (Parr) Simmons of Peacock Publishing I was conversing with over a book I was writing (but later abandoned) in 2003.

In it I had written a line about how, just as Robert Devereaux was not born at Netherwood as widely believed but at Nonsuch Palace, Francis Bacon was not born at York House or York Palace, but in Windsor Castle. Judith had ticked it. I can’t find the page with any footnotes for the citation. Surely not true?! Does anyone know where I would have got that from back around 2001/3? 🤷🏻‍♀️ It’s not something I’ve seen mooted over the last 20+ years and I’d completely forgotten I’d written about this.
 

IMG_2276.jpeg.6d54829846eed4a13d0666d192cd9bfc.jpeg

Judith edited my  ‘work in progress’. I wonder if she’s still alive? If you are reading this Lawrence, I’m sure you’d know. 

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As mentioned prev, it’s not just the inscription that has gone through many iterations over the years, but also the ‘curse’ epitaph on the ledger stone. This article discusses the ledger stone fiasco and links it to an epitaph to a Baker (or person named Baker perhaps as English surnames often reflected trade or town). https://churchmonumentssociety.org/monument-of-the-month/the-ledger-to-mary-jackson-d-jan-20-1676-at-allesley-warwickshire-and-the-grave-of-william-shakespeare

IMG_2277.jpeg.6c68478093be2a77c6b8b05eff9c9b7b.jpeg

Also want to suggest trying yet another cipher I’ve seen mentioned which counts a number of letters (usually shown by a key) backwards or forwards from punctuation marks. This cipher caught my eye due to the strange punctuation on the Shakespeare monument  (newer one shown) incl that there is no period on the end of the second and no comma on the fourth line).

IMG_2279.jpeg.2b87d29fafb427061b79e67f5a4d46f5.jpeg
 

Please also note, there is another thread devoted to Shakespeare monuments, here.

 

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This is so simple that it surely can’t be possible, and other people must have seen it, but did they make the later one have the word with in split in two because that stops Shakspeare being word number 33 cipher for Bacon? 
 

Using Dugdale’s, which looks more like within is one word, it is word number 33

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Why did the printers use a different font for the name too? Remember Dugdale was definitely part of the Rosicrucian/Masonic circle.

Edited by Kate
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I have found a particularly good, comprehensive article on this site. https://robinhoodlegend.com/will-shake-2/
Eric, you might particularly want to scroll through it as it has a large gallery of Shakespeare portraits, as well as the monument ones.

Notice how George Vertue also doesn’t record the word plast. I wonder if it’s not actually a word for placed but placqued? 
 

If so, are the words “envious death” a clue - the devious?!  Bit of a stretch but I am exploring every avenue since reading Ashmole 🕵🏻‍♀️
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