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John Dee, Robert Dudley & Edward De Vere


Kate

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I’ve got to start a new topic on this one.
 

As I’ve mentioned several times here and in my book, I was christened in Temple Balsall which was the main Templar centre, outside of London and the Temple Church, in England. In Shakespeare Re-Invented by Keith Browning - the updated version which he sends out on request -  the author has done the lengthiest investigation into Temple Balsall that I have ever read anywhere (There is nothing as in depth on the website of the Church). Anyway today I was looking at the font and noticed it is called the Lady Anne Holborne font.

IMG_1309.jpeg.b4516d3d1281b996fe69961041b5e799.jpeg


They have a typo here. It is Holborne.

This led me to look deeper into her. I knew the land was once in the hands of the Dudley’s (it’s close to Kenilworth Castle) but I obviously have a massive gap in my understanding of Robert Dudley (suspected as we all know of being Bacon’s father). I had no idea he had a son (who lived) who was also called Sir Robert Dudley (which explains why he flew under my radar). I guess when I’ve read stuff about Sir Robert Dudley I have always assumed it was his father I was reading about. 

Anne was one of RD’s (Jnr)daughters, hence ‘our’ Robert Dudley’s Granddaughter (I knew she was that but didn’t know her father was also a Robert) but the bit I didn’t know is Robert Dudley Jnr was born in a Palace, had been on many voyages and was involved in several ‘Tempests’’, one near Bermuda and he lived in Italy for a lengthy time!! I also didn’t know his father and uncles were pupils of John Dee. 

All this seems really important given the time frame and that he was potentially Francis Bacon’s half-sibling. Has anyone ever looked deeply into Robert Dudley (jnr)? Forgive me if you have. As explained, I obviously assumed I was reading about his father.  Two very informative links are 

IMG_1311.jpeg.862682136fbcc5780329c0d030436f3c.jpeg

This first one is about Robert Snr above and there’s an interesting mention of Edward DeVere (twice) - it’s double this length http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/RobertDudley(1ELeicester).htm

This one is about sir Robert Dudley Jnr:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dudley_(explorer)

IMG_1312.jpeg.41d87436dfe85d67c70b81ef07596c9a.jpeg
 

It also strikes me that if FB was QE1s son and Dudley’s (snr) secret son that there should be some writing or unusual activity from Francis Bacon around the time of his father’s death which while he’d have to keep concealed at the time might be obvious now as this would have been a huge psychological and emotional event for him. 

Edited by Kate
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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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I'm surprised the post above has got so little traction. Did everyone but me know that Robert Dudley was educated by John Dee?

Did everyone know about Bacon's half brother with the same name as Bacon's father, who may have informed some of Bacon's writing? Robert Junior surely travelled a lot to Italy in the late 1500s before he decided to settle there in the 1600s. What trees were in the area he lived? Isn't there a big debate over a type of tree only seen in Italy that appears in Shakespeare? Is the double quote by Robert senior about the 'unpopular' Edward De Vere the one we have seen before in the Parliament records? Questions, questions! Maybe no one else thinks as left-field as I do?

I think it's fascinating but probably a little pointless going over and over things that have been looked at by thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of eyes, since the SAQ arose. I'm thinking of the Stratford monument and grave inscriptions here. They are not going to give up any new information that can unequivocally lead to a greater certainty about the true author. Looking at people and their documents who we know must have been closely affiliated with Bacon's ' scriptorium' or family just may.

Surely the several Granddaughters of Dudley (Holborne being just one) would eventually have got wind of the fact that he was Queen Elizabeth's lover (if he was) and delved around a bit. What things did they unearth of write about if they had realised/discovered/heard rumours their half-Uncle, Bacon was Shakespeare?

Anyway on my most recent forays I came across this. The inside we know of but the cover? It's from 1922. Love the reference to The Sonnes of Sapience (SS) https://archive.org/details/reprintoftreatis00baco  Not sure if I've seen this one before. I think I'd remember 'The Delivery of the Lamp'. Shakespearekeys.png.0f5e2367935c14b1bc2f284cb3293954.png

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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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12 hours ago, Kate said:

I'm surprised the post above has got so little traction.

I did not see it until just now! I don't know why it slipped by. I always look at the newest posts. But maybe there were so many that this was pushed down way too fast. And my week has been totally crazy, and still.

That is what I do not like about most social media as the stream goes by too fast. They say for popular Facebook accounts maybe 2% will ever see the posts. But if you cultivate a million followers you might have 20,000 viewers. Or if 10,000 followers then hopefully 200 viewers.

Kate, your post needs to be in the Light! Maybe tomorrow afternoon or evening I can reply as you present some great perspectives I see!

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T A A A A A A A A A A A T
157     www.Light-of-Truth.com     287
<-- 1 8 8 1 1
O 1 1 8 8 1 -->

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20 hours ago, Kate said:

I'm surprised the post above has got so little traction. Did everyone but me know that Robert Dudley was educated by John Dee?

Did everyone know about Bacon's half brother with the same name as Bacon's father, who may have informed some of Bacon's writing? Robert Junior surely travelled a lot to Italy in the late 1500s before he decided to settle there in the 1600s. What trees were in the area he lived? Isn't there a big debate over a type of tree only seen in Italy that appears in Shakespeare? Is the double quote by Robert senior about the 'unpopular' Edward De Vere the one we have seen before in the Parliament records? Questions, questions! Maybe no one else thinks as left-field as I do?

I think it's fascinating but probably a little pointless going over and over things that have been looked at by thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of eyes, since the SAQ arose. I'm thinking of the Stratford monument and grave inscriptions here. They are not going to give up any new information that can unequivocally lead to a greater certainty about the true author. Looking at people and their documents who we know must have been closely affiliated with Bacon's ' scriptorium' or family just may.

Surely the several Granddaughters of Dudley (Holborne being just one) would eventually have got wind of the fact that he was Queen Elizabeth's lover (if he was) and delved around a bit. What things did they unearth of write about if they had realised/discovered/heard rumours their half-Uncle, Bacon was Shakespeare?

Anyway on my most recent forays I came across this. The inside we know of but the cover? It's from 1922. Love the reference to The Sonnes of Sapience (SS) https://archive.org/details/reprintoftreatis00baco  Not sure if I've seen this one before. I think I'd remember 'The Delivery of the Lamp'. Shakespearekeys.png.0f5e2367935c14b1bc2f284cb3293954.png

Hi Kate

Like Rob, I didn't see your important post until now. Thanks so much for posting. Much to explore. 

RobertDudley.jpeg.3b49eb7248dca092f1540ea8ee2c4aba.jpeg

Robert Dudley (1574-1649) by Nicholas Hilliard

 

The NPG states that this portrait is "probably" the same Robert Dudley. (Detail)

ScreenShot2024-01-30at9_39_07am.png.e1af7656c3569a2293b754a9a4e5bdc9.png

https://historicalnovelsociety.org/reviews/the-noble-bastard-the-story-of-robert-dudley/

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On 1/28/2024 at 1:50 AM, Kate said:

I’ve got to start a new topic on this one.
 

As I’ve mentioned several times here and in my book, I was christened in Temple Balsall which was the main Templar centre, outside of London and the Temple Church, in England. In Shakespeare Re-Invented by Keith Browning - the updated version which he sends out on request -  the author has done the lengthiest investigation into Temple Balsall that I have ever read anywhere (There is nothing as in depth on the website of the Church). Anyway today I was looking at the font and noticed it is called the Lady Anne Holborne font.

IMG_1309.jpeg.b4516d3d1281b996fe69961041b5e799.jpeg


They have a typo here. It is Holborne.

This led me to look deeper into her. I knew the land was once in the hands of the Dudley’s (it’s close to Kenilworth Castle) but I obviously have a massive gap in my understanding of Robert Dudley (suspected as we all know of being Bacon’s father). I had no idea he had a son (who lived) who was also called Sir Robert Dudley (which explains why he flew under my radar). I guess when I’ve read stuff about Sir Robert Dudley I have always assumed it was his father I was reading about. 

Anne was one of RD’s (Jnr)daughters, hence ‘our’ Robert Dudley’s Granddaughter (I knew she was that but didn’t know her father was also a Robert) but the bit I didn’t know is Robert Dudley Jnr was born in a Palace, had been on many voyages and was involved in several ‘Tempests’’, one near Bermuda and he lived in Italy for a lengthy time!! I also didn’t know his father and uncles were pupils of John Dee. 

All this seems really important given the time frame and that he was potentially Francis Bacon’s half-sibling. Has anyone ever looked deeply into Robert Dudley (jnr)? Forgive me if you have. As explained, I obviously assumed I was reading about his father.  Two very informative links are 

IMG_1311.jpeg.862682136fbcc5780329c0d030436f3c.jpeg

This first one is about Robert Snr above and there’s an interesting mention of Edward DeVere (twice) - it’s double this length http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/RobertDudley(1ELeicester).htm

This one is about sir Robert Dudley Jnr:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dudley_(explorer)

IMG_1312.jpeg.41d87436dfe85d67c70b81ef07596c9a.jpeg
 

It also strikes me that if FB was QE1s son and Dudley’s (snr) secret son that there should be some writing or unusual activity from Francis Bacon around the time of his father’s death which while he’d have to keep concealed at the time might be obvious now as this would have been a huge psychological and emotional event for him. 

 

For those (like me) who've never heard of The Church of St. Mary the Virgin Temple Balsall:  http://greatenglishchurches.co.uk/html/temple_balsall.html

http://www.leveson.org.uk/templebalsall/history.htm

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Eric Roberts said:

 

For those (like me) who've never heard of The Church of St. Mary the Virgin Temple Balsall:  http://greatenglishchurches.co.uk/html/temple_balsall.html

http://www.leveson.org.uk/templebalsall/history.htm

 

 

Thanks for the above guys.

The world moves in mysterious ways. If I hadn't got the connection to there, this may have flown under the radar. Maybe we are like jigsaw pieces that get moved into position to complete puzzles at the right time. I bet all of us have some connection somewhere to the Bacon/Shakespeare bunch - even if on the very periphery. It's probably some part of the 'collective conscious' that drives us to have a particular fascination. I just thought it may be a new avenue to explore. Thanks for the pictures

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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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20 hours ago, Kate said:

Thanks for the above guys.

The world moves in mysterious ways. If I hadn't got the connection to there, this may have flown under the radar. Maybe we are like jigsaw pieces that get moved into position to complete puzzles at the right time. I bet all of us have some connection somewhere to the Bacon/Shakespeare bunch - even if on the very periphery. It's probably some part of the 'collective conscious' that drives us to have a particular fascination. I just thought it may be a new avenue to explore. Thanks for the pictures

Hi Kate

I liked your idea that we are "like jigsaw pieces that get moved into position to complete puzzles at the right time." A case in point concerns Johannes Valentin Andreas, mentioned last week in several posts by Jon Bentley. About the same time I was put in touch with Julie Kemp who has spent an enormous amount of time researching the life of JVA.

I have only sighted the tip of the iceberg of her research, which includes extensive family trees for JVA, SFB and Augustus II, Duke of Brunswick, aka Gustavus Seleni. Much of this work is on Julie's Ancestry sites. She has given me permission to share a selection of her findings here on sirbacon.org. My hunch is that this original research which deals primarily with FB's life post-1626 will help to substantiate the many clues and connections that allude to his 'afterlife'. The idea is to collate Julie's research as a dossier that can be shared here and elsewhere. Not sure how long it will take Julie and I to compile, as I still don't know the full extent of her many years of research. I've only just received the links to her Ancestry sites, but straight away I found this TRUE family tree for SFB. This is something I've never seen before: Francis Bacon's correct line of descent. (Apologies for the reduced size of the image, due to Ancestry's limited display options.)

ScreenShot2024-01-31at8_29_59pm.png.2eef0c0b18ebb18a8c221253cb1acf35.png

More anon.

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On 2/1/2024 at 1:34 AM, jon bentley said:

Very exciting. Keep us posted please.

Hi jon

Thanks for your encouragement. Julie is "getting on" a bit as we all are and I gather she hasn't been well of late, hence her inability to join in the discussions here. I just mentioned you to her, as someone also very interested in Johannes Valentin Andreas and the author of The Royal Secret. In the process, I discovered a wonderful short film that you made some years ago. The montage is fast and wild, but your voice is as resonant as your monologue is profound. I hope you don't mind my posting the link here.

 

Please don't be offended if I also post this short bio of yours for the other members of this forum. 

ScreenShot2024-02-01at10_26_29pm.png.e37c4338ad4d74355da07ae261f24bca.png

Edited by Eric Roberts
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On 1/29/2024 at 3:32 PM, Kate said:

Did everyone know about Bacon's half brother with the same name as Bacon's father, who may have informed some of Bacon's writing? Robert Junior surely travelled a lot to Italy in the late 1500s before he decided to settle there in the 1600s.

Hi Kate,

I learned about the link between Robert Dudley senior and John Dee 5 or 6 years ago, at the beginning of my research, but I do not remember how.

I learned about Robert Dudley junior more recently, thanks to a discussion (in one of your topics if I remember correctly) with Rob and CJ around John Smith and the Map of Virginia.

My research led me to Dell'Arcano del Mare by Robert Dudley.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell'Arcano_del_Mare

https://www.abebooks.com/Arcano-Mare-Dudley-Sir-Robert-Florence/22922149158/bd

I decided to keep this information for later, having a lot of another projects to finish and not enough time to explore this path further at that time.

Indeed, this is an interesting subject ! 🙂 

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Thanks for your responses, Yann. ❤️

Look at this from your link. Seems like we may be getting closer to those flourishes on the Holinshed and Northumberland! I circled the one that seems closest - it is obviously not the same, and the book is 1645 so way too late (plus they were probably quite common in the era) but it’s interesting. I wonder if  Robert Dudley drew these maps himself?

IMG_1389.jpeg.1bd44157b2eafa4661b12f2a51520062.jpeg

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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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Wow. Look at this:

IMG_1391.jpeg.769a19c4f66602ed627f39809865b8de.jpeg
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6245182

IMG_1392.jpeg.f19309993ab90573e8f114e62f86d66a.jpeg
 

Near identical flourishes done here by Sir Robert Dudley Jnr also appear on the Northumberland Manuscript and he just happens to have been the self-styled Duke of Northumberland! 

Edited by Kate
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Hi Kate, 

I agree with you, there are similarities between these flourishing letters and the flourishes on the Holinshed and the Northumberland Manuscripts.

But, despite the fact that Robert Dudley jr claimed the title of Duke of Northumberland, I would not be too prompt to conclude that there is a link between Robert Dudley jr and the manuscripts.

Indeed, what you see on the maps of Dell'Arcano del Mare were common flourishing used in Italian Hand.

https://pennavolans.com/the-italian-hand/

However, I think we could say that the flourishes on the Holinshed and the Northumberland Manuscripts derived from this type of flourishing in Italian Hand.

 

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image.png.b8c74f56d5551c745119c268cf9d3db8.png

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If anyone does ever want to delve further down this Robert Dudley Jnr path, here is the family. If Fr Bacon was Dudley’s son then he was half-uncle to the ones listed in Immediate family, including Alice.  IMG_1405.jpeg.00a44ae5fea292476b8701e4c78c56b9.jpeg

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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/28/2024 at 1:50 AM, Kate said:

I’ve got to start a new topic on this one.
 

As I’ve mentioned several times here and in my book, I was christened in Temple Balsall which was the main Templar centre, outside of London and the Temple Church, in England. In Shakespeare Re-Invented by Keith Browning - the updated version which he sends out on request -  the author has done the lengthiest investigation into Temple Balsall that I have ever read anywhere (There is nothing as in depth on the website of the Church). Anyway today I was looking at the font and noticed it is called the Lady Anne Holborne font.

IMG_1309.jpeg.b4516d3d1281b996fe69961041b5e799.jpeg


They have a typo here. It is Holborne.

This led me to look deeper into her. I knew the land was once in the hands of the Dudley’s (it’s close to Kenilworth Castle) but I obviously have a massive gap in my understanding of Robert Dudley (suspected as we all know of being Bacon’s father). I had no idea he had a son (who lived) who was also called Sir Robert Dudley (which explains why he flew under my radar). I guess when I’ve read stuff about Sir Robert Dudley I have always assumed it was his father I was reading about. 

Anne was one of RD’s (Jnr)daughters, hence ‘our’ Robert Dudley’s Granddaughter (I knew she was that but didn’t know her father was also a Robert) but the bit I didn’t know is Robert Dudley Jnr was born in a Palace, had been on many voyages and was involved in several ‘Tempests’’, one near Bermuda and he lived in Italy for a lengthy time!! I also didn’t know his father and uncles were pupils of John Dee. 

All this seems really important given the time frame and that he was potentially Francis Bacon’s half-sibling. Has anyone ever looked deeply into Robert Dudley (jnr)? Forgive me if you have. As explained, I obviously assumed I was reading about his father.  Two very informative links are 

IMG_1311.jpeg.862682136fbcc5780329c0d030436f3c.jpeg

This first one is about Robert Snr above and there’s an interesting mention of Edward DeVere (twice) - it’s double this length http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/RobertDudley(1ELeicester).htm

This one is about sir Robert Dudley Jnr:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dudley_(explorer)

IMG_1312.jpeg.41d87436dfe85d67c70b81ef07596c9a.jpeg
 

It also strikes me that if FB was QE1s son and Dudley’s (snr) secret son that there should be some writing or unusual activity from Francis Bacon around the time of his father’s death which while he’d have to keep concealed at the time might be obvious now as this would have been a huge psychological and emotional event for him. 

Hi Kate

Philip Mould has a charming, naive portrait ("probably") of Sir Robert Dudley 1574-1649. He dates the picture to between 1595-1605.

https://philipmould.com/content/feature/591/detail/artworks5616/

philipmould-company-english-school-portrait-of-an-explorer-probably-sir-robert-dudley-1574-1649-c.-1595-1605.png.5acc0b2b904673b03ff8a9b316d749b5.png

 

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22 hours ago, Eric Roberts said:

Hi Kate

Philip Mould has a charming, naive portrait ("probably") of Sir Robert Dudley 1574-1649. He dates the picture to between 1595-1605.

https://philipmould.com/content/feature/591/detail/artworks5616/

philipmould-company-english-school-portrait-of-an-explorer-probably-sir-robert-dudley-1574-1649-c.-1595-1605.png.5acc0b2b904673b03ff8a9b316d749b5.png

 

Hi Kate. Just came across this 'life' of Robert Dudley Jnr, in case you don't have it already and are curious to know more about him...

The Son that Elizabeth I Never Had : The Adventurous Life of Robert Dudley's Illegitimate Son by Julia A. Hickey

https://www.torrossa.com/en/resources/an/5327515

HickeyJuliaA.TheSonthatElizabethINeverHad-TheAdventurousLifeofRobertDudleysIllegitimateSon.jpg.582a0cea2654dc49676e8ad03729f077.jpg

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