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A Rose by any other word?


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With reference to my previous posts concerning the 2 and 4 full fingers displayed by the effigy, and my translation to ALPHABET ST etc:

Consider again the Stratford monument text:

Line 4 overall, or line 2 English text makes this challenge: READ IF THOV CANST

Four words. The fourth is an anagram of ACTS N

where N = 13, so ACTS 13 is the result.

This leaves READ IF THOV

counting 5 both ways lands on

 --> I  and F <-- making either IF or FI

This leaves READ THOV

By experiments, I see E and V which when added to FI makes FIVE

This leaves  RAD THO

By more experiments I see T put with E makes ET: Latin 'and'. So I put T with FIVE thus FIVE T.

This leaves RAD HO which hides a Greek name.

It is a female Greek name: RHODA which means Rose.

So up to now we have

                      RHODA ACTS 13 FIVE T

But ET make ET, so, by even more experiments, I find FIVE T makes F et VI which becomes

6 and 6 which is 12.

So, the result of all this playing around with letters is either RHODA ACTS 13:12

Which, according to the New Testament book of the Acts of the Apostles says:

"When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord."

Or there is the alternative passage:

                         RHODA ACTS 12:13

which says:

" Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant named Rhoda came to answer the door."

 

There is but one Rose in the New Testament and Rhoda is she.

Having found the Rose, the Greek  Crosse  called O Σταυροσ should prove easy to uncover.

 

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Hi Peethagoras,

Your final result is interesting.

However, when I attempt to deciphering a message, I am personally reluctant, when I play with numbers, to mix several ciphers like for example :

I AM = 42 with I the Roman number 1,  A = 1 simple cipher and M =40 (gematria of the Hebrew letter Mem)

Thus, I AM  is the answer to the ultimate question about life, the Universe, and everything.😊

This is why I am a bit embarrassed, facing FIVE T, to tell  that FIVE T # F ET VI with F = 6 (simple cipher) and VI = 6 (Roman Number)

And in this case why not F ET IV that leads us to Acts 13 : 10 or Acts 10 : 13 ?

"and said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?"

"And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat."

Less glamourous ! 🙂

Or why not Acts 13:35 ( F ET VI with F =6 and VI = 29) ?

"Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

READ IF THOU CANST

image.png.dbe29b40777b417c17e3141c4a996bb7.png

Few months ago, thanks to a comment by CJ (RoyalCraftiness) I noticed something very interesting.

By counting from IUDICIO, the 27th word (27 = 3^3) is "DEATH" and the 33rd word is "MONUMENT".

By countiing from STAY, the 27th word is "DIDE" and the 33rd word is "TOMB".

Interestingly enough, thanks to your post, I just realized that READ IF THOU CANST is the anagram of ...

TO FRAUNCIS DEATH

(with TO = 33 = BACON)

image.png.8d7ae8e95c52b76ca5cd030beb423c0f.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Northumberland_manuscript_transcription_1904.png

 

 

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 Hi Allisnum2er and thanks for taking the time to browse my stuff. I can well understand your points but I must reply. I had to skip much of my reasoning for fear of causing readers to fall asleep, but here follows, perhaps a more detailed explanation:

First, I chose the 4th word in the 4th row, CANST.

Why that word, because not only is it the 4th word in the 4th line, if counted from Latin line 1, it is also the 4th word in the 2nd line, if only English lines are considered. Keeping in mind that effigy and the 2 and 4 fingers business, from my earlier submission "Blank Page".

And I noted that CANST ends with ST. Again, If you read my "blank Page" you might remember the anagram ALPHABET ST.  Of course there's more than one such ST pair, nevertheless, it was a start for me. Then I noticed that the N is the middle letter in CANST and also the 13th letter in that line. These facts, I believe to be significant, because by putting N outside of CANST leaves CAST, therefore it can be realized that CANST is anagram of CAST N.

Having 'cast' out N, I was left with CAST, which, after some thought, and keeping in mind that effigy and the 2 and 4 fingers business, and also the fact that this is the 4th word in the 4th line, then, counting 2 left from A, then 2 left from T, makes AC TS or ACTS.

                             CA<-    ->ST  ==>  ACTS  (note error should be:)   CA<-  ST<-  ==>  ACTS

The 'outcast' N = 13, so having got ACTS 13 sorted out, the problem became one of what next?

Bearing in mind that the 4 words pose a challenge to read something, and it seems to me that whatever is to be read, getting to the nub of it all must surely be a difficult task. Notice that I have totally ignored the rest of the line: it seems to say read if you can whom envious death has placed within this monument Shakespeare. Rather than Shakespeare monuments, and I suspect something is amiss in all that. So I began by treating the first 4 words as the challenge itself:

read (this sentence) if you can. I forgot to point out that the 4th word is followed by a comma thus: READ IF THOV CANST,

So far I had ACTS 13, but like your reply, it requires a chapter or verse number.

           Back to the remainder of the sentence: READ IF THOV

It was pointed out that N is the 13th in the line, this, as you know tallies with the alphabet place-value for N.

Another look reveals that D is the 4th, F is the 6th and H is the 8th letter in the line: these too agree with their alphabet place-values. I asked myself if this was by chance: 4 letters D F H N all in their correct alphabetical positions, in the 4th if counted from Latin line 1 (or 2nd English line) of the text.

So I took the sum of 4 + 6 + 8 + 13 to find 31: then I looked at word 31 which is IN.

I figured that as I have ACTS 13, surely meant to mean The Book of the Acts of the Apostles, then perhaps IN was meant to mean I N as in the Latin IIesu NNazarene?

      ("Quid nobis et tibi, Iesu Nazarene?” From the Latin Vulgate Bible)

But I = 9 and N = 13, their sum being 22, so I looked at the alphabet and saw X.

In other words I N and a Greek cross, or a St Andrew's cross.

Where was all this going? Surely whoever designed it all had no interest in Christianity?

And what might the number of I N be? The answer is 31: the same number as the position of the word itself: the 31st word. In other words, word 31 = 31.

As for the sum of 4 + 6 + 8 + 13 = 31, I have no idea what 31 might represent in terms of Christianity (except perhaps amen or name?).

Eventually I considered using 31 as two numerals 3 and 1, and applied them to line 3, word 1 which is STAY.

Now, I must admit at this point to having a little kind of knowledge that most visitors to the Stratford Monument might not possess, also, I doubt if the texts regarding Shakespeare, and all the cannon, were ever intended to be seen, or even understood, by what then were mostly illiterates. That said, I looked at STAY, and looked again, and it struck me: I was reading part of a Greek word!

STAY? Greek? Yes indeed, the first two words in line 3 are STAY PASSENGER: just reading the first 7 * letters becomes STAYPAS, which, in Greek large letters becomes ΣΤΑΥΡΑΣ.

* (Note that the arch above the effigy contains 7 Tudor roses).

Anglicised ΣΤΑΥΡΑΣ reads stavras. In truth, it should really be STAYPOS, but anyone who understands some Greek would surely recognize the meaning, no matter if A and O are exchanged.

But what does it mean? It means cross or crucifix.

     I return to the points under question:

So up to now, having sorted out CANST, I had to interpret READ IF THOV.

Could this mean read IF THOV? 6 letters. F is the 6th of the alphabet and the 6th in the line. So I used F first. That left 5 letters: I THOV, the 5th being V, as in Roman V.

So I put I with F and added the 5th letter V to them: now they look somewhat like FIVE.

Now I had FIV with THO remaining.

But I still had the 4 letters READ to consider, and in there is an E, the 5th of the alphabet, so I put that E with what I had collected to make FIVE.

I was now left with RAD THO.

This group caused me much trouble, until I realized that I had found a Greek cross in STAYPAS, so maybe there was something Greek in RAD THO that was involved.

Perhaps I should go back to line 1 where two Greek characters are named: Pylos (Homer’s argonaut Nestor) and Socratem, or Socrates.

As I had been involved with those 2 and 4 full fingers and the alphabet st anagram, I considered the first occurrence of S and T in the text are found in the name SOCRATEM.

A closer look shows that it has a Latin ROSA with two remaining: C T.

According to the alphabet C = 3 and T = 19, their sum is 22, this is the number of X: as explained earlier. So, between S T in the name of the Greek teacher SOCRATES lies a rose and symbolic cross.

Rosicrucian cunning came easily to mind.

But I drift off: from READ IF TCANST I had now extracted ACTS 13, FIVE with RAD THO remaining.

Having the Greek name of cross which is stavros, I wondered what the Greek for rose was: the answer is rhodo or perhaps rhoda.

It turned out that RAD THO does indeed hide a Greek rose: RHODA, and I was now left with just one letter : T to go with my FIVE.

But what do I do with FIVE T?

FIVE has 5 letters, and the last is E, the 5th of the alphabet.

I looked again at the main body of text under the effigy, and realized that in the 5th line, in the 5th word, the 5th letter E is missing: It’s present in Shakespeare’s “wife”s stone, so why is it missing here? Was it some kind of hint? A clue?

And why is the surname William missing? Was he not worthy to have his full name displayed?

So I scribbled down the full name, only I made sure the first letter was the old VV made with two vees: V being 5th in the alphabet and in the Roman system. VVilliam Shakespeare

Then I started to count from the first V, and landed on the 19th letter which is E.

But T is 19th in the alphabet, and here, in the name E is the 19th. And I had FIVE T to deal with.

Did it mean ‘5’ T ?

I Put the E with the T and it formed Latin ET which means ‘and’.

This left me with FIV, and I recognized I might have an F and a Roman number in the group: F IV.

Now, according to the ancient Romans, IV = 4, so I left this and thought about the F and the Latin ET:

Knowing that F is the 6th of the alphabet, could it be that I had 6 et 4? In other words 6 and 4 = 10.

So I put everything together: RHODA ACTS 13 10 and went off to read that part of the New Testament. But no such name could I find there. In fact Rhoda only exists in one place in the whole Bible.

I wondered who might be able to help in this, and came up with the famous star crossed pair, in particular, Juliet trying to get Romeo to change his name:

According to the First Folio, Juliet asked him “What? In a names a Rose by any other word would smell as sweet…..” 13 letters from W to a, just before Rose.

A typo error? Not a bit of it. She wanted Romeo to change his Christian name, Mountague: it starts with an M. Note that Juliet was just 13, and her name contains 13 letters. M, by the way is the 12th.
 

By the way SOCRATEM holds yet another anagram which is well worth investigating: ROSE ACT M where M = 12.

But which verse? The answer lies in the first M in the text: it is found in the name of the other Greek character, PYLIUM. But although it has an alphabet place-value of 12, it’s 13th in the line, so its a case of assuming that, whoever set it all out meant it to hint at 13, thus ROSE ACT 12:13 .

        Also: Juliet said these exact words:

What? In a names a Rose by any other word would smell as sweet….

Consider these first 3 words in the text: IVDICIO PYLIVM GENIO

The first letters are I P G which form PIG.

So there's a smelly PIG by a sweet ROSE in the first 4 words.

And, knowing that Juliet was 13, with 13 letters to her name, we find that the 13th word is STAY:  this makes A STY.

     N = 13:     Hamlet to his mother's swinish behaviour with his uncle:

Nay, but to live in the rank sweat of an enseamed bed, stew'd in corruption; honeying and making love over the NASTY STY.

 

Lastly, here is an example which I fell over some time back, it involves the first of the two Greek characters in the text: PYLIUM, the mythical king of Pylos. His Homeric name is NESTOR.

I wonder if you can find the link between NESTOR and the following text?

              “ So should my papers, yellow’d with their age,

                  Be scorn’d, like old men of less truth than tongue,”

Have fun if you canst.


 


 


 

Edited by peethagoras
error noted and corrected
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Hi Peethagoras,

Thanks to you for taking the time to explain in detail your methodology.

Regarding your challenge and based on your way of thinking, I would say that you noticed two interesting "anagrams" of NESTOR :

ROSE N.T. and SONET R

SONET is the middle french word for SONNET.

Here is an example in "Livret de folastries" by Ronsard.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k10485259/f74

R is the 17th letter of the Tudor Alphabet.

SONET R # SONNET 17

Then you took a look at Sonnet 17 and probably began to look for a correlation between letters or words and their placement in the Sonnet.

This is probably how you realized that one of the verses contained the number of words  corresponding to the number of the verse :

Verse 10 : "Be ſcorn'd, like old men of leſſe truth then tongue" (10 words)

You also probably noticed that the 8th word was "Truth" and that this 10th verse of the Sonnet 17 was the 8th line of the page.

And regarding Nestor and the Truth, let's take a look at Odysseus Book III 

https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey3.php

"Go straight to Nestor, now, to the tamer of horses: let us find what wisdom he keeps in his heart.

Beg him yourself to speak the honest truth. He is truly wise and will not utter a lie."

EDIT :

Though yet heaven knows it is but as a tomb
Which hides your life, and shows not half your parts.
If I could write the beauty of your eyes,
And in fresh numbers number all your graces,
The age to come would say 'This poet lies;

The 4th word of the 4th line of the page it the word "numbers" that is the 33rd word. (33 = BACON)

Thus "number" is the 34th word and numbers number = 33 +34 = 67 (67=FRANCIS)

 

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Yes thank you Allisnum2er. Much of what you say is spot on, although I have always understood Nestor to be treated as an old bag of wind, and not taken too seriously by his fellow Argonauts. 

As for number numbers : I take it as Francis Bacon Word.

As for my offering, I had to edit some of it yesterday, as I am in the habit of writing on the fly, this can cause some mighty

big errors.😁

Explanations are so difficult. The problem I have always had is that the English Literature world cannot deal with arithmetic, and mathematicians care not much for poetry, if you catch my drift. When will that ever change?

In passing, and out of interest, as you are well into the numbers etc, I wonder if you answer a couple of points for me?

For example, what's your take on M in reference to Bacon etc?

What on earth is this "Kay cipher" references I keep reading about? I can't find anything that says Bacon used it, only that he mentioned it. The same goes for the other cipher systems, except his Biliteral thing.

The only reason I use the simple gemetria system is because Dee used it, and imho so did his friends.

 

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Hi Peethagoras,

The search engines of SirBacon.org and the B'Hive are useful tools.

Your question about "The Kay Cipher" reminded me a great post by A Phoenix on the subject.

Here is the link :

 

Regarding the letter M and Bacon, I do not know what to say ... 

For me,  the shape of the Letters M , W and the greek Σ can be linked to the constellation Cassiopeia that is the Heavenly Queen.

At the beginning of my research, I read (and kept in mind) that  W.M. could be the acronym of Worshipful Master.

Most recently, I realized that M.W. could be the acronym of Most Worshipul.

Anyway, M(12) + W(21) = 33 = BACON

To bring something new (I believe 😅) on the table, few weeks ago, working on my video for Bacon's Birthday, the research led me to the registration of King Lear by Nathaniel Butter the 26th of November 1607 and to this document ...

https://shakespearedocumented.folger.edu/resource/document/stationers-register-entry-king-lear

Being born the 27th of November, I threw a glance at the 27th of November 1607 and discovered another possible meaning of W.M.

WM was the diminutive of ... WILLIAM! 🙂  

 

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Hi AllisnumBer, thanks for the reply and that info. It is so refreshing to have someone return their thoughts on a subject. I must admit to having knowledge of MW in the two senses you describe, as  I have been involved with gemetria, and also basic arithmetic, applied to old texts, for very many years, first starting with the bible, then Pilgrim's Progress, and eventually progressing to the works of WS, Bacon, Jonson, and Dee etc etc....

The reason for bringing the subject of single M up is that: I think Sir Francis Bacon knew of it, probably via Dee.

Take for example that mysterious sentence in the Stratford Monument "whose name doth deck this TOMBE."

I read it as TO  BE  M where TO BE is the verb. There in the middle is the special M.

But I eventually found that particular mysterious sentence to hold a great deal more than can be scribbled down here. But I will expand if you have the interest.

   (TOMBE is set in Line 6 word 9: and I would imagine that you understand that NUMBER = 69)

What do you think? Does it make any sense at all, or am I just blowing bubbles in an empty room? 😀 From the response or otherwise to my previous offerings, I find that I seem to be far above the heads of members. Perhaps I need someone to let me know where their difficulties are.

Oh, I nearly forgot to say: as you know, M = 12, this can be seen as 6 times 2, or, in terms of the alphabet, F times B.

Moreover, M can make F BAC, or perhaps F ABC.

Did you know that FRANCIS VERULAM = 153 ?

And the square of 12 is 144, or, to put this in symbolic terms: M raised to the power of B, this is the same result as for SIR FRANCIS BACON.

As for W M you mentioned: the square of M = 144 and the square of W = 441. 😁

Best regards.

Edited by peethagoras
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8 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

At the beginning of my research, I read (and kept in mind) that  W.M. could be the acronym of Worshipful Master.

As the W. Mr. H that is at the end of the Sonnets dedication poem in one way to read it, Worshipful Master H, or F + B = H.

https://www.light-of-truth.com/Royal_Arch_Jewel/solution_old.htm

T.        T.

SETTING FORTH IN THE ADVENTURER
BY WISHING WELL
WISHETH LIVING EVER.

OUR POET PROMISED THESE SONNETS
TO THE ONLIE AND INSVING
ETERNITIE
THAT BEGETTER OF ALL
HAPPINESSE.

W.Mr. H

Bacon_30.jpg

 

 

 

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T A A A A A A A A A A A T
157     www.Light-of-Truth.com     287
<-- 1 8 8 1 1
O 1 1 8 8 1 -->

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Thanks for the input guys.

Mr.W.H ????

If you have ever read Jonson's Alchemist, in particular Subtle, the Alchemist, describing the new shop sign for the "Nab" (victim): a tobacconist called Abel Drugger, you will have noticed the way he describes the name on the sign:ABEL DRUGGER ; he uses a "a bell" to sound like Abel, then a man named Dee, who wears a rug gown, and for the end letters ER he uses the snarl of a dog, as err. A similar thing can be found in Romeo and Juliet, when the exceedingly garrulous Nurse asks Romeo if Romeo and Rosaline "both begin with a letter", to which Romeo uses the same dog snarl. The Nurse calls it "the dog's name", but really she means the dog's letter: littera canina.

All that said, I think about the sounds of words, that was one reason for the sonnets: 'little sounds':

Take English w: nearest Greek is omega ω, it sounds like long English O, then sound r as err: Mr W H written almost in reverse as HwMr  sounds like Homer.

Like Odysseus' famous adventure, once our adventure of solving the sonnets begins, it's a long time getting back again.

 

Edited by peethagoras
clarification of part of text
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2 hours ago, peethagoras said:

Thanks for the input guys.

Mr.W.H ????

If you have ever read Jonson's Alchemist, in particular Subtle, the Alchemist, describing the new shop sign for the tobacconist Nab Drugger, you will have noticed the way he describes the name of the sign: DRUGGER ; he uses a man named Dee, who wears a rug gown, and for the end letters ER he uses the snarl of a dog, as err. A similar thing can be found in Romeo and Juliet, when the exceedingly garrulous Nurse asks Romeo if Romeo and Rosaline "both begin with a letter", to which Romeo uses the same dog snarl. The Nurse calls in "the dog's name", but really means the dog's letter: littera canina.

All that said, I think about the sounds of words, that was one reason for the sonnets: 'little sounds':

Take English w: nearest Greek is omega ω, then sound r as err: Mr W H written as HwM r  sounds like Homer.

Like Odysseus' famous adventure, once our adventure of solving the sonnets begins, it's a long time getting back again.

 

Very interesting, Dr P.

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On 1/31/2024 at 8:59 PM, peethagoras said:

Hi AllisnumBer, thanks for the reply and that info. It is so refreshing to have someone return their thoughts on a subject. I must admit to having knowledge of MW in the two senses you describe, as  I have been involved with gemetria, and also basic arithmetic, applied to old texts, for very many years, first starting with the bible, then Pilgrim's Progress, and eventually progressing to the works of WS, Bacon, Jonson, and Dee etc etc....

The reason for bringing the subject of single M up is that: I think Sir Francis Bacon knew of it, probably via Dee.

Take for example that mysterious sentence in the Stratford Monument "whose name doth deck this TOMBE."

I read it as TO  BE  M where TO BE is the verb. There in the middle is the special M.

But I eventually found that particular mysterious sentence to hold a great deal more than can be scribbled down here. But I will expand if you have the interest.

   (TOMBE is set in Line 6 word 9: and I would imagine that you understand that NUMBER = 69)

What do you think? Does it make any sense at all, or am I just blowing bubbles in an empty room? 😀 From the response or otherwise to my previous offerings, I find that I seem to be far above the heads of members. Perhaps I need someone to let me know where their difficulties are.

Oh, I nearly forgot to say: as you know, M = 12, this can be seen as 6 times 2, or, in terms of the alphabet, F times B.

Moreover, M can make F BAC, or perhaps F ABC.

Did you know that FRANCIS VERULAM = 153 ?

And the square of 12 is 144, or, to put this in symbolic terms: M raised to the power of B, this is the same result as for SIR FRANCIS BACON.

As for W M you mentioned: the square of M = 144 and the square of W = 441. 😁

Best regards.

Hi Peethagoras,

What do I think ?

Once again, I think that it is interesting ! 🙂 

Facing a new information, I am and will always be in the Team "Why not ?" or "What if ?" 😊.

Indeed, I am aware that FRANCIS VERULAM = 153

What about the fact that "TOMBE" could hide "TO BE M"?

Adding that TOMBE is the 33rd word by counting from "Stay Passenger" (with S+P = 33 simple cipher) with the following sentence "Stay Passenger, why goest thou by so fast" that is 33 words long, I think that it can be a possibility.

Here are some fruits of my past research on the subject that I share for the first time.

We all know the importance of the number 53.

The fact is that from "Stay" to "Witt" there are 52 words, which means that "OBIIT" is the 53rd word.

OBIIT = 53 simple cipher. ( OBIIT or TOBII ?)

It also means that each word in this passage is related with number 53.

Indeed, if "Stay" is the first word by counting from "Stay" to "Witt", this is the "52nd" word by counting from "witt" to "Stay", and so on for each word.

The first and the last 1 + 52 = 2 + 51 = ... = 53.

By counting from "Stay" the 20th word is "THIS" and the 33rd word is "TOMBE".

"THIS TOMBE " 20 + 33 = 53

By counting from "witt" the 20th word is "TOMBE" and the 33rd word is "THIS".

"THIS TOMBE" 33 + 20 = 53

The simple cipher of "THIS TOMBE" = 106 (53 + 53)

image.png.546b11f5a16cb4eba8ac48d1b7119543.png

https://archive.org/details/atalantafugiensh00maie/page/121/mode/2up

image.png.294ba5b4824308d8573a69bce372a7d3.png

Interestingly, the reverse cipher of "THIS TOMBE" is 119 that is the simple cipher of MEDIOCRIA FIRMA.

And here is a last thought ...

image.png.1fd0ee1337a24dc4df9e661b40e2926d.png

NOTICE THE FIVE CAPITAL LETTERS OF THE FIRST TWO LINES.

NESTOR WAS GREEK.

If we consider that the P of "PYLIUM" stands for the Greek letter P that is our Letter "R" then the 5 letters are :

I, R , S, M , T,  O

This is the anagram of MORTIS, which makes sense here (the context is always important).

But we can also made the word TIMOR.

And here is, in my view, one solution to this riddle, a solution that should please Kate in regard to the Painting she chose for the cover of her great book.

TIMOR MORTIS CONTURBAT ME

(The fear of death disturbs me)

"Stay Passenger, why goest thou by so fast ?"

THE FEAR OF DEATH !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timor_mortis_conturbat_me#/media/File:San_Jerónimo_en_su_estudio,_Colegiata_de_Osuna.jpg

undefined

16th-century portrait of Saint Jerome in his study, with Timor mortis conturbat me behind him. (after Marinus van Reymerswaele)

Jl FilpoC, CC BY-SA 4.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0>, via Wikimedia Commons

 

I let you appreciate the beautiful "BACON" almost in the middle thanks to the positioning of the words😊

https://poets.org/poem/lament-makaris

https://readingmedievalbooks.wordpress.com/tag/timor-mortis-conturbat-me/

Best regards

 

 

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Amazing analysis Yann.
 

Re the picture it’s obviously a different version and I am not sure if the words on the picture are even on Durer’s, I’ll have to look, but here, not only are they arranged to display a TT but they sum to 22, and there’s so much other hidden symbolism in the picture. Thanks for sharing all this - and for your kind compliment.

One thing I’d add is that this motto surprised me because immortality was their big thing. So I don’t know that they were ‘disturbed’ by death  as much as disturbed by people’s fear of it, which gives it a whole new context. I did a quick search and came up with this, (Wiki of all places) which perhaps fits better?

IMG_1417.jpeg.204e5297f28228fd9266eda7d3c82e48.jpeg

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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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On 2/3/2024 at 11:22 AM, Allisnum2er said:

Hi Peethagoras,

What do I think ?

Once again, I think that it is interesting ! 🙂 

Facing a new information, I am and will always be in the Team "Why not ?" or "What if ?" 😊.

Indeed, I am aware that FRANCIS VERULAM = 153

What about the fact that "TOMBE" could hide "TO BE M"?

Adding that TOMBE is the 33rd word by counting from "Stay Passenger" (with S+P = 33 simple cipher) with the following sentence "Stay Passenger, why goest thou by so fast" that is 33 words long, I think that it can be a possibility.

Here are some fruits of my past research on the subject that I share for the first time.

We all know the importance of the number 53.

The fact is that from "Stay" to "Witt" there are 52 words, which means that "OBIIT" is the 53rd word.

OBIIT = 53 simple cipher. ( OBIIT or TOBII ?)

It also means that each word in this passage is related with number 53.

Indeed, if "Stay" is the first word by counting from "Stay" to "Witt", this is the "52nd" word by counting from "witt" to "Stay", and so on for each word.

The first and the last 1 + 52 = 2 + 51 = ... = 53.

By counting from "Stay" the 20th word is "THIS" and the 33rd word is "TOMBE".

"THIS TOMBE " 20 + 33 = 53

By counting from "witt" the 20th word is "TOMBE" and the 33rd word is "THIS".

"THIS TOMBE" 33 + 20 = 53

The simple cipher of "THIS TOMBE" = 106 (53 + 53)

image.png.546b11f5a16cb4eba8ac48d1b7119543.png

https://archive.org/details/atalantafugiensh00maie/page/121/mode/2up

image.png.294ba5b4824308d8573a69bce372a7d3.png

Interestingly, the reverse cipher of "THIS TOMBE" is 119 that is the simple cipher of MEDIOCRIA FIRMA.

And here is a last thought ...

image.png.1fd0ee1337a24dc4df9e661b40e2926d.png

NOTICE THE FIVE CAPITAL LETTERS OF THE FIRST TWO LINES.

NESTOR WAS GREEK.

If we consider that the P of "PYLIUM" stands for the Greek letter P that is our Letter "R" then the 5 letters are :

I, R , S, M , T,  O

This is the anagram of MORTIS, which makes sense here (the context is always important).

But we can also made the word TIMOR.

And here is, in my view, one solution to this riddle, a solution that should please Kate in regard to the Painting she chose for the cover of her great book.

TIMOR MORTIS CONTURBAT ME

(The fear of death disturbs me)

"Stay Passenger, why goest thou by so fast ?"

THE FEAR OF DEATH !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timor_mortis_conturbat_me#/media/File:San_Jerónimo_en_su_estudio,_Colegiata_de_Osuna.jpg

undefined

16th-century portrait of Saint Jerome in his study, with Timor mortis conturbat me behind him. (after Marinus van Reymerswaele)

Jl FilpoC, CC BY-SA 4.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0>, via Wikimedia Commons

 

I let you appreciate the beautiful "BACON" almost in the middle thanks to the positioning of the words😊

https://poets.org/poem/lament-makaris

https://readingmedievalbooks.wordpress.com/tag/timor-mortis-conturbat-me/

Best regards

 

 

Yes indeed, thanks again for that input, much to digest. In passing, re your conversion of Latin P to Greek

I find that  I, R , S, M , T,  O comes to  SIR Francis, and if we push a little, TO, as you will know, is 33, or Bacon.

 

But where oh where can we find a simple sentence such as  ' Fr. Bacon es W. Shakespeare ' ?

Assuming you understand the old meaning of ES ?

 

 

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For those in this Forum who believe Francis Bacon was actually a king:

Using the straight alphabet, I added all 12 initial letters in the Latin text of the Stratford epitaph and arrived at 149.

We all know what 100 means, but what about 49?

Ok, math says it's 7 squared etc, but it's also the number of SIRE.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning 149:  could 14 = Dee and I = 9?

Sonnet 36: "Let me confess that we two must be twain,"

Perhaps not - too complex for the likes of Dee.

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6 hours ago, peethagoras said:

But where oh where can we find a simple sentence such as  ' Fr. Bacon es W. Shakespeare ' ?

Assuming you understand the old meaning of ES ?

Hi Peethagoras ,

The turn of your question makes me think that you have an answer. 🙂 

And sorry but I am not sure to understand "the old meaning of ES".

I am french, and my two-language capability shows deficiencies. 😅

To give you an idea, this is thanks to one of your post that I learned the meaning of STY.

Thus, I was unable to imagine that STAY was the anagram of A STY.

And more recently, I learned the meaning of "snarl" .

In french, TU ES means YOU ARE.

We also have ès.

But in this case, Cat got my tongue !

Regarding the number 49, for me this is the simple cipher of WIT.

And 149 = FRANCIS BACON WIT

 

 

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7 hours ago, peethagoras said:

But where oh where can we find a simple sentence such as  ' Fr. Bacon es W. Shakespeare ' ?

Assuming you understand the old meaning of ES ?

I could use some direction. I have Googled of course, but am lost. Please expand for we on the outside of this veil. 😉

I do see this and can smile at "Fr. Bacon her W. Shakespeare" from Elizabeth, if that is your thinking. 😉

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/es

Middle English

Etymology 1

Determiner

es

  1. Alternative form of his (his)

Pronoun

es

  1. Alternative form of his (his)

Etymology 2

Pronoun

es

  1. Alternative form of his (her)

Etymology 3

Verb

es

  1. Alternative form of is (is)

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On 2/5/2024 at 7:00 PM, Allisnum2er said:

Hi Peethagoras ,

The turn of your question makes me think that you have an answer. 🙂 

And sorry but I am not sure to understand "the old meaning of ES".

I am french, and my two-language capability shows deficiencies. 😅

To give you an idea, this is thanks to one of your post that I learned the meaning of STY.

Thus, I was unable to imagine that STAY was the anagram of A STY.

And more recently, I learned the meaning of "snarl" .

In french, TU ES means YOU ARE.

We also have ès.

But in this case, Cat got my tongue !

Regarding the number 49, for me this is the simple cipher of WIT.

And 149 = FRANCIS BACON WIT

 

 

Hi Allisnum2er ust a fleeting reply with reference to ES:

 
is (verb)

third person singular present indicative of be, Old English is, from Germanic stem *es- (source also of Old High German, German, Gothic ist, Old Norse es, er), from PIE *es-ti- (source also of Sanskrit asti, Greek esti, Latin est, Lithuanian esti, Old Church Slavonic jesti), third person singular form of root *es- "to be." Old English lost the final -t-.

I will reply to rest when I get time thanks for your response.

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I should learn not to write on the fly, but that's the way I am. As for my remarks, I've found an anagram which may

be of some significance, but it requires one word to complete the thing. Here's what I have found up to now:

FR. BACON (ES) W. SHAKESPEARE.

I am of the opinion that (ES) should be either "BE" or "IS", but I could not reasonably find the words, until last

night, when it hit me, and I realized that the answer was staring me in the face all the time.

This means I now have:   FR. BACON IS W. SHAKESPEARE.

I know anagrams are looked down upon in this forum, but I wondered: what it would take for such as the one shown above

to be accepted as the real thing. If there are no conditions that would allow for an anagram to be seen as a genuine message from the past, then that entirely eliminates all forms of word combinations. In fact all so-called ciphers would also be invalid.

I suppose what I'm really driving at is: Just what would it take for a group of words, bearing claims of authorship, to be accepted as a genuine message for posterity?

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28 minutes ago, peethagoras said:

...

I suppose what I'm really driving at is: Just what would it take for a group of words, bearing claims of authorship, to be accepted as a genuine message for posterity?

I would ask, "Accepted by who?"

There are numerous groups of words and numbers that bear claim to Bacon's authorship that are already widely accepted by some of we Baconians, his "choir" so to speak.

Will the general public or those with their own authorship passions or agenda ever accept Baconian cipher evidence for who wrote Shakespeare? Doubtful that will happen.

Even solid evidence is ignored by the masses who mostly could care or less. A. Phoenix's works provide some of the most powerful documented evidence ever discovered and described and still change is slow to take root.

Anagrams are valid clues, and when in context or with supporting ciphers help build a case. But anagrams by themselves are not strong. There is an old story of a popular Baconian anagram that either strats or oxies rearranged to make it their own as a demonstration.

There are nearly 120,000 possibilities with FRBACONESWSHAKESPEARE. 😉

https://new.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=FRBACONESWSHAKESPEARE&language=english&t=5000&d=&include=&exclude=&n=&m=&a=n&l=n&q=n&k=1&source=adv

image.png.ed29d9fb2bfe1cc6a1172565464dedf9.png

 

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Agreed to persuade newcomers to Bacon aka Shakespeare its best to stay away from anagrams and codes and stick to realities. Starting with that there is no jot of evidence that Wm Shakespeare could write or that if he could how he would have been in a position to write on subjects of law and science and travel he had no experience of.  Secondly by evidencing Bacon's claim against others. 

The closeness of Ben Jonson to Bacon as opposed to say de Vere or others. That Jonson produced the 1st Folio while Bacon was in his last years in England (almost certainly working together on it at Gorhambury _ who else would have access to the old play scripts? )  when de Vere and Wm Shakespeare had been dead for years. The monument changing appearance begging obvious questions as to why. The lack of any Wm Shakespeare memorial or burial in Westminster and so on.

The codes in the 1st Folio I feel sure do explain Bacon's authorship and wish one day to be discovered but anagrams can mean almost anything and provide ammunition for critics. The connection of the Folger family to the Bacons and that the Folger library holds only information on Shakespeare and Bacon cannot be just coincidence and it would seem there is a powerful group who do know the truth for sure but are bound together to continue to conceal it. For what reason I don't know but it may possibly reveal more than we know and be the answer to it all. 

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27 minutes ago, jon bentley said:

Agreed to persuade newcomers to Bacon aka Shakespeare its best to stay away from anagrams and codes and stick to realities.

I might suggest that "pursuade" be replaced with "introduce." It's quite a challenge to persuade anybody of anything. Introductions, however, can take on a life of their own.

Fact is there are Baconians who were introduced to Bacon by the ciphers. Myself being one. I had been interested in secret writing for a few years before learning who Bacon was. During the mid 1990's discussing shamanic plants and potions online required a level of hidden meaning as the legality of some of them were questionable. So we had our own secret language and methods of sharing ideas among ourselves while we spoke in plain view of everybody else who did not understand our meaning. When I was introduced to Bacon for the first time, ciphers came up and I was immediately intrigued because I "got it." Nobody had to persuade me that he had a reason to encode his messages. To me the very real possibility of having one's head cut off in public seemed like a powerful motivator to have a secret way of writing, especially if what you have to say is important.

I know some people have become Baconians who started out as actors in Shakespeare plays and at some point heard of the Authorship debate. They were already  cultivating a love of Shakespeare and were curious about his life.

There are Baconians who are architects and engineers who learned of Bacon long before ever hearing that he might have been Shakespeare.

And of course some Freemasons and/or Rosicrucians learned about Bacon through tradition or secret teachings.

And now we might even have a few Baconians in the group who watch Oak Island or other shows on TV that bring up Bacon.

I am interested how the numbers breakdown. Maybe the FBS could do a survey and we might learn where we all started on the path. 🙂

 

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6 hours ago, jon bentley said:

The codes in the 1st Folio I feel sure do explain Bacon's authorship and wish one day to be discovered but anagrams can mean almost anything and provide ammunition for critics.

Hi Jon,

Please, let me disagree with the fact that anagrams can mean almost anything.

I agree with you regarding the anagrams with several letters like the example given by Rob (Light-of-Truth)

But this is not the case when you have a few letters.

Here is a recent discovery I shared two days ago in another topic.

image.png.5e4c50508720674c35abc1e9b8456efe.png

FALCO (Falcon) - PILUM (Spear) - OLOR (Swan) - ODARIUM (Song) - ARTES (Artes) -  BACON

FALCO has one anagram :  FOCAL (From FOCUS - Fireplace, Hearth)
Interestingly, in Irish FOCAL means WORD.

(In the beginning was the Word ... John 1:1 )


PILUM has no valid anagrams (I do not consider I, PLUM or I, LUMP as valid anagrams in this context).

OLOR has no anagrams.

ARTES 

image.png.aa593f7fa04a2f52bfafdf7ba16e0859.png

TEARS and A REST are interesting as well as ASTER that is the Latin for STAR.

ODARIUM

What does the "SONG" of the SWAN (OLOR) tell us ?

image.png.bc22e6a1779dea5793017960dbc67a4d.png

"OUR MAID" 

COULD IT BE THE "VIRGIN" QUEEN" ?

Notice that in fact, in the middle (Mediocria firma) we have the letter O D A R I (T) UM.

ODARITUM has 193 anagrams but almost all of them are meaningless except, in the context, this one ...

image.png.3eacaef1f510834cdabbe4683197f1db.png

I AM TUDOR

And yes, I suggest that the author of this unsigned first Memoriae could be the Great One in person.

😊

 

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Thank you for the examples you give. Its not that I don't see the fascination to their relevance to some but that in general the vast number of suchlike that people come up with can be very confusiing to the average student of the Bacon/Shakespeare discussion and so tends to my mind to draw away from more convincing arguments and illustrations.

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On 2/8/2024 at 10:56 AM, jon bentley said:

there is no jot of evidence that Wm Shakespeare could write

Hello to you Jon. Nice to read you here. 👍

IMHO:

There was no such writer, indeed no such person. The whole name was an invention started by John Dee, Elizabeth I and Robert Dudley.

Even the year in which the so-called "baptism" took place was selected because it represents a special anagram:

1564: 56 inside 14: 'word' inside 'Dee' (according to the alphabet that they used then). In other words: Word of Dee.

1564: the product of 4 times 17 times 27, or in letters D R Y:  no water hence no baptism.

I mean to say, what are the chances? Look at SHAKESPEARE: letter 2 is H, letter 6 is S:

H = 8 and S = 18, sum is 26:  2  6.

H stands for Hathwey. S stands for Shakespeare: she married at the age of 26, he was 18.

 

S plus H = 26:-  Bacon Francis.

     S times H:-

18 times 8 = 144 = Sir Francis Bacon.

(Or perhaps Francis Bacon & MONAS ------> read Dee's Hieroglyphic Monad published 1564).

  "Read if thou canst"?

In passing: R D + E T (Robert Dudley and Elizabeth Tudor) make the sum of 45.

The root of 45 is 6 and 7/10, or, in modern parlance, without the decimal point 67.

True it is that FRANCIS = 67 but so does SECRET, and, amongst many others, so too does DUDLEY.

Actually, the root of 67 gives these first three digits (although there are more) : 8 and 18 (see earlier).

But I do believe two things: its all far too deep  "To digg the dust encloased heare....." 

and Dee is dead. (Sonnet 31, 14th word.)

 

 

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23 hours ago, jon bentley said:

Thank you for the examples you give. Its not that I don't see the fascination to their relevance to some but that in general the vast number of suchlike that people come up with can be very confusiing to the average student of the Bacon/Shakespeare discussion and so tends to my mind to draw away from more convincing arguments and illustrations.

Good point made, but I do like "I AM TUDOR" as a possible anagram of ODARITUM. 😉

By the way, ODARITUM is 33 Short cipher and 174 Kaye cipher.

33 is Simple cipher for BACON.

174 is Simple cipher for FRANCIS BACON TUDOR.

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