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Silence of the Name Tudor During Elizabeth's Lifetime


Christie Waldman

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24 minutes ago, Christie Waldman said:

The Early English Books Online - Corpora might reveal additional titles. It's a little slow to use if you don't have an institutional affiliation, but it can be done, with patience. https://www.english-corpora.org/eebo/. It covers printed books and broadsides. You will see that some of the sources you have already mentioned show up in it.

I think someone spelling the name "Tidir" (how the Welsh would pronounce it) was saying they identified as Welsh, and/or with Owen Tudor himself (who, I would say, was unfairly executed), using the spelling the British gave to the man's name.

This source says he chose to Anglicize his name, taking his grandfather's first name of Tudur as his last name rather than taking his father's first name of Maredudd as his last name which was the traditional Welsh way, but I read some time ago that it was the English who Anglicized (shortened, from "Owain ap Maredudd ap Tudur" to Owen Tudur or Tudor") his name when he came to their court in his youth. That seems perfectly likely and makes more sense to me. Like when people's names got changed when they came through immigration at Ellis Island. https://gw.geneanet.org/comrade28?lang=en&n=tudor&oc=0&p=owen

 

In the H.S. poem a few posts back, he says:

Richmond it was first brought in Tudors name,
Richmond it was abolished the same.

At first I thought Henry was the one to silence the Tudor name. Upon some more research and thought, I wonder if Edmond Tudor, 1st Earl of Richmond set some Royal directive for the name to stay hushed. Maybe as simply as until another son being born in the line which Henry did not do, right? Perhaps Bacon could have reignited the Tudor name into the English language had Elizabeth acknowledged who he was at birth.

 

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As I was looking for "Tudor" in books from the 16th and 17th century, my research led me to this Bible published in 1616 :

https://www.google.fr/books/edition/The_Bible/4eJBAQAAMAAJ?hl=fr&gbpv=1

Take a look right after the leaf 444, the unnumbered leaves 1 and 2 of the New testament.😉 

No, "Tudor" is not used in this book, but it was obviously owned by a Baconian who left some marks all along the book 🙂.

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1 hour ago, Allisnum2er said:

As I was looking for "Tudor" in books from the 16th and 17th century, my research led me to this Bible published in 1616 :

https://www.google.fr/books/edition/The_Bible/4eJBAQAAMAAJ?hl=fr&gbpv=1

Take a look right after the leaf 444, the unnumbered leaves 1 and 2 of the New testament.😉 

No, "Tudor" is not used in this book, but it was obviously owned by a Baconian who left some marks all along the book 🙂.

How did you feel when you saw this?? Must have been a thrill! 🙂

 

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37 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

How did you feel when you saw this?? Must have been a thrill! 🙂

 

Indeed ! 😊

38 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I wonder who it was??

image.png.001d9aef040018b020214695e50976d6.png

On the same page:

image.png.e657aa53bcf97bab73bd31168cba5148.png

 

And one more time thanks to you !!! 🙂 

Did you notice Chapt IX verse 8 at the bottom of page 33 ? 

'And of some, that Elias had appeared : and of some, that one of the old prophets was risen againe. "😃

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Look at these pages below. First page 285 which has some notes by our Baconian friend.

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4eJBAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA285&hl=en

image.png.445070b32cd93aa9343a3167def023fc.png

Then page 287has a few marks after two page 286's:

image.png.ec56357175473a93c953d30eefc186d3.png

And page 289 is misnumbered as 285:

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4eJBAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA289&hl=en

image.png.2ed48b94bc363ef2dbe4465f9953d9ff.png

 

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3 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

Take a look right after the leaf 444, the unnumbered leaves 1 and 2 of the New testament.😉 

I would have assumed you were the owner of this old bible based on the notes on this page:

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4eJBAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.RA1-PA1&hl=en

image.png.cf017c8829f8890fcac97ca8069c5b35.png

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19 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I would have assumed you were the owner of this old bible based on the notes on this page:

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=4eJBAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.RA1-PA1&hl=en

image.png.cf017c8829f8890fcac97ca8069c5b35.png

I smiled when I discovered   HANG-HOG = 58 and ROBERT = TUDOR = 74 😊

This being said, I could not do what this Baconian did.

It is unthinkable for me to write on this kind of book.

And talking about this page, the hyphenation of  THE NEW  TESTA - MENT reminded me the title page of another Book printed by Conrad Badius in 1557.

https://www.e-rara.ch/mhr_g/content/zoom/6328497

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So, the EEBO Early English Corpora does not capture all uses (limited to printed books and broadsides within its date range, and even so doesn't catch everything), but I did a search for "Tidder" and for "Tudor" here https://www.english-corpora.org/eebo/ . The EEBO groups them by decades.

First, "Tidder."

In the 1620's there were four uses and in the 1670's six.

In the 1620's they list four in a 1629 edition of Bacon's Henry the 7th.

In the 1670's there were these: 1674, A collection of English words ... by John Ray, giving a meaning of "soon, quickly, sooner." 1676, An English dictionary explaining the difficult terms ... by Elisha Colones (check name), giving a meaning of "titillation, tickling, titter, tidder, tider, soon, quickly, titulation."

1676, The history of the reigns of Henry 7, 8,Edward 6,Queen Mary (the first book by Bacon, the other 3 by the Rt. Hon. and Rt. Rev. Francis Godwyn, Lord Biship of Hereford. Lists as authors Bacon, Francis Godwyn, and Morgan Godwyn 1602 or 3 - 1645. The example of "tidder" given is from Bacon's History of Henry 7.

For "Tudor":

There were 18 in 1597, Michael Drayton, England's heroical epistle ...

In 1603, there were sixteen uses in England's To the Majesty of King James.

In 1605, Poems by Michael Drayton, 12 uses.

1611, A brief chronicle of the ... by Anthony Munday.

1612, A crowne garland ... by Richard Johnson.

1612, Poly-Olbion by Michael Drayton. [Albion? Alban?]

1615, Essays and characters ... by John Stephens.

There were 14 uses in 1620 in a work by Richard Johnson.

2 uses in 1622 in The second part, or a continuance of Poly-Olbion, by Michael Drayton.

2 uses in 1622, A chorographical description ... by Michael Drayon.

2 uses in 1625, Mikrokosmos ... by Peter Heylyn, "augmented and revised."

So, overall, for Tudor, the EEBO shows 18 uses in the 1590's, 30 in first decade of the 1600's, 7 in the 1610's, 20 in the 1620's, 6 in the 1630's, 11 in 1640, 9 in 1650, 119 in 1660's, 180 in 1670's, 21 in 1680's, and 32 in the 1690's. "Uses" could be in the same work, and who knows if names of authors are real or pseudonyms. It is all worth taking a closer look at. Also, one might look in Shakespeare at references to "winds" and "tides," possibly, for interesting connections.

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8 hours ago, Christie Waldman said:

"Uses" could be in the same work, and who knows if names of authors are real or pseudonyms.

Everything I saw of Michael Drayton was about Owen Tudor and Mary Tudor. Its possible it was the same source, or the same of a few sources.

What I did get was that Michael Drayton was one of a very few, if not the only English writing author to keep the name "Tudor" spelled as such alive as Bacon started to age.

Elizabeth was a Tudor, everybody knew it. Mary was her sister and Owen her Grandfather. Bacon was a Tudor, at least my opinion.

This is actually a fascinating piece of the Elizabethan era!

I am so frustrated that www.bl.uk is not working for me! Such a vast resource to compliment EEBO! And it is not responding, probably hacked by Strats or Oxies! Did they move? Anybody know?

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17 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I am so frustrated that www.bl.uk is not working for me! Such a vast resource to compliment EEBO! And it is not responding, probably hacked by Strats or Oxies! Did they move? Anybody know?

Hi Rob,

Here is the answer 🙁

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/oct/31/british-library-suffering-major-technology-outage-after-cyber-attack

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6 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

Note from November 22, 2023:

We have no evidence that data of our users has been compromised. However, if you have a British Library login and your password is used elsewhere, we recommend changing it on other sites as a precautionary measure.

https://blogs.bl.uk/living-knowledge/2023/11/cyber-incident.html

 

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