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Silence of the Name Tudor During Elizabeth's Lifetime


Christie Waldman

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On 11/2/2023 at 3:00 PM, Lawrence Gerald said:

The Beefeater guards at the Tower of London (1992) when asked about the Tidir scrawl, look into their book of all  historical markings that exist in the Tower and told me  there is nothing about it and they claim they don't know either. So it's still a State maintained secret. Whether Essex carved it or not, its a red flag for British History being out of joint.

Alfred Dodd, wrote that Robart Tidir  is the Welsh spelling of  Robert Tudor

It might have been a phonetically accurate pronunciation, with short "u" pronounced like our short "i," (as in "bit") and long "u" pronounced like "ir." See Kieren Windsor, "Welsh Alphabet = + How to Pronounce the Letters," Welsh Guidebook, updated 8/26/23, https://walesguidebook.com/language/welsh-alphabet/; see also http://www.mylanguages.org/welsh_alphabet.php (slightly different info. on long "u").

We call them "Tudors," looking back, but they did not refer to themselves as Tudors yet, it seems. See Sean Coughlan, "Tudor era is misleading myth," says Oxford historian [Cliff Davies], May 29, 2012, https://www.bbc.com/news/education-18240901. The term was an embarrassment due to its Welsh connections. There's a JSTOR article by C. S. L. Davies, "What's in a Name?" vol 97, no 1 (325), Jan. 2012, JSTOR https://www.jstor.org/stable/24429363. I haven't read it; it is not one that is free to read online. Also Univ. of Oxford, May 29, 2012,  https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2012-05-29-tudor-england-myth

Bacon might not have used the word "Tudor" in his History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh. It does not appear in the index to Brian Vickers' edition (Cambridge University Press, 1998). I did not see the word "Tudor" in the first part where he tells how the King came to power (pp. 5-22). I wonder who was behind the use of the name.

In the Welsh naming system, Owain (Owen) "Tudor," grandfather of Henry VII (through secret marriage to Catherine of Valois, widow of Henry V), should have been called "Maredudd" (Meredith), but the British, when he entered British court service as a youth, called him by the name Owain Tudor. "Tudor" was not a last name in Welsh.

Owain was unjustly killed, his bloody head placed on the market cross. I have wondered whether there was a connection here with Owain's unjust execution and the Rosicrucians' "rosy cross" symbolism. Perhaps Essex, in writing "Tidar," was claiming an association with Owen "Tudor" who was killed unjustly, despite his loyalty, just as Essex claimed he remained loyal to his queen (and mother).  https://www.britainexpress.com/counties/hereford/owen-tudor-plaque.htm; Thomas Jones Pierce, "Owain Tudor (ca 1400 - 1461)," Dictionary of Welsh Biography, https://biography.wales/article/s-OWAI-TUD-1400; David Nash Ford, "Owen Tudor, 1400-1461," https://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/otudor.html ("heavily edited from Sir Sidney Lee's Dictionary of National Biography").  https://www.tudorsociety.com/owen-tudor-1400-1461/

Thanks to this discussion, I found this article by Brendan Cunningham, about special watches decorated with the Tudor rose: "Decoding the Tudor Rose, May 24, 2023, https://www.horolonomics.com/2023/05/decoding-tudor-rose.html.

The Tudor rose is a hybrid rose, made up of the white rose of the House of York and the red rose of the House of Lancaster. Henry VII invented the symbol.

 

Edited by Christie Waldman
typos
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On 11/7/2023 at 8:51 AM, Christie Waldman said:

We call them "Tudors," looking back, but they did not refer to themselves as Tudors yet, it seems. See Sean Coughlan, "Tudor era is misleading myth," says Oxford historian [Cliff Davies], May 29, 2012, https://www.bbc.com/news/education-18240901. The term was an embarrassment due to its Welsh connections. There's a JSTOR article by C. S. L. Davies, "What's in a Name?" vol 97, no 1 (325), Jan. 2012, JSTOR https://www.jstor.org/stable/24429363. I haven't read it; it is not one that is free to read online. Also Univ. of Oxford, May 29, 2012,  https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2012-05-29-tudor-england-myth

Bacon might not have used the word "Tudor" in his History of the Reign of King Henry the Seventh. It does not appear in the index to Brian Vickers' edition (Cambridge University Press, 1998). I did not see the word "Tudor" in the first part where he tells how the King came to power (pp. 5-22). I wonder who was behind the use of the name.

This has fascinated me from the first time I read this post. From the BBC article (bold emphasis is mine):

Dr Davies, who specialises in 16th-Century history, says "the rather obvious thought occurred to me" of investigating whether there had been any references to "Tudor" during the years of the Tudor monarchs.

His years of trawling through contemporary documents yielded almost no references - with only one poem on the accession of James I (James VI of Scotland) recognising the transition from Tudor to Stuart.

Surprised by this absence of any contemporary usage, he says he expected "clever American professors to come up with examples to prove me wrong" - but so far there has been no such evidence.

 

I took up the challenge even though I am not a professor. My online search was narrowed to English works between 1561 and 1626. "Of course Tudor should come up? Shakespeare must have used it a hundred times!"

Shakespeare never wrote the word "Tudor" in plain text. I don't think Bacon ever wrote it either. "Tudor" popped up in my search during that time frame but almost always for Owen Tudor and Mary Tudor, Elizabeth's sister. The term "Tudors" pops up but very rarely when talking about the Royal lineage not mentioning Henry or Elizabeth. "Tudor" was basically not in print in England. Printers must have been forbid to use the term in England during the Tudor Years.

Fascinating.

After James I became king, it started to appear after how many years in the closet?

In 1612 we have these lines in a poem by Richard Iohnson:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A04551.0001.001/1:2

King Henries second comfort prou'd,
a Henry of his name:
In following time eight Henry cald,
a King of noble fame.
He conquered Bullen by his sword,
With many townes in France:
His manly might, and fortitude,
did Englands fame aduance.

He Popish Abbies first supprest,
and Papestry puld downe:
And bound their lands by parliment,
vnto his royall crowne.
He had thrée children by thrée wiues,
all Princes raining here:
Edward, Mary, and Elizabeth:
a Quéene belou'd most deare.

These thrée swéet branches bare no frute,
God no such ioy did send:
Through which the Kingly Tudors name,
in England here had end.
The last Plantaginet that liu'd,
was nam'd Elizabeth:
Elisabeth last Tudor was,
the greatest Quéene of earth.

Seuenth Henry yet we name againe,
Whose grace gaue frée consent:
To haue his daughters married both,
to Kings of high dessent.
Margret the eldest of the twaine,
Was made great Scotlands Quéene,
As wise, as faire, as vertuous,
as eare was Lady séene.

From which faire Quéene (our royall King)
by lineall course descendeth:
And rightfully inioyes that crowne,
Which God now still befrendeth.
For Tudor and Plantaginet,
by yéelding vnto death:
Hath made renowned Stewards name,
the greatest vpon earth.

 

Elizabeth was a Tudor, it was just not spoken out-loud during her reign. For my work which is partly based on the name Tudor, I am still comfortable with my theories. Elizabeth and her son(s) were Tudors and everybody knew it.

I am intensely intrigued at how effectively it was hushed! Was there a law? Was it passed on person to person? Printers had to know that it was not allowed. Were heads chopped off?

I'd love to know the history of the silence of the Tudor name.

Dr. Davis says, "...in Welsh documents the name of Tudor is 'celebrated' but it was 'considered an embarrassment in England'."

I feel like there is much more to it and an incredible story may be buried in that quiet period. That story should be told.

So Bacon knew he was a Tudor, named William. Born to the Queen of England who was a Tudor, but you couldn't say it. A secret wrapped in a secret!!

I'm eager to know more about the Veil that covered the Tudor name. Why? When? Who? How??

🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

This has fascinated me from the first time I read this post. From the BBC article (bold emphasis is mine):

Dr Davies, who specialises in 16th-Century history, says "the rather obvious thought occurred to me" of investigating whether there had been any references to "Tudor" during the years of the Tudor monarchs.

His years of trawling through contemporary documents yielded almost no references - with only one poem on the accession of James I (James VI of Scotland) recognising the transition from Tudor to Stuart.

Surprised by this absence of any contemporary usage, he says he expected "clever American professors to come up with examples to prove me wrong" - but so far there has been no such evidence.

 

I took up the challenge even though I am not a professor. My online search was narrowed to English works between 1561 and 1626. "Of course Tudor should come up? Shakespeare must have used it a hundred times!"

Shakespeare never wrote the word "Tudor" in plain text. I don't think Bacon ever wrote it either. "Tudor" popped up in my search during that time frame but almost always for Owen Tudor and Mary Tudor, Elizabeth's sister. The term "Tudors" pops up but very rarely when talking about the Royal lineage not mentioning Henry or Elizabeth. "Tudor" was basically not in print in England. Printers must have been forbid to use the term in England during the Tudor Years.

Fascinating.

After James I became king, it started to appear after how many years in the closet?

In 1612 we have these lines in a poem by Richard Iohnson:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A04551.0001.001/1:2

King Henries second comfort prou'd,
a Henry of his name:
In following time eight Henry cald,
a King of noble fame.
He conquered Bullen by his sword,
With many townes in France:
His manly might, and fortitude,
did Englands fame aduance.

He Popish Abbies first supprest,
and Papestry puld downe:
And bound their lands by parliment,
vnto his royall crowne.
He had thrée children by thrée wiues,
all Princes raining here:
Edward, Mary, and Elizabeth:
a Quéene belou'd most deare.

These thrée swéet branches bare no frute,
God no such ioy did send:
Through which the Kingly Tudors name,
in England here had end.
The last Plantaginet that liu'd,
was nam'd Elizabeth:
Elisabeth last Tudor was,
the greatest Quéene of earth.

Seuenth Henry yet we name againe,
Whose grace gaue frée consent:
To haue his daughters married both,
to Kings of high dessent.
Margret the eldest of the twaine,
Was made great Scotlands Quéene,
As wise, as faire, as vertuous,
as eare was Lady séene.

From which faire Quéene (our royall King)
by lineall course descendeth:
And rightfully inioyes that crowne,
Which God now still befrendeth.
For Tudor and Plantaginet,
by yéelding vnto death:
Hath made renowned Stewards name,
the greatest vpon earth.

 

Elizabeth was a Tudor, it was just not spoken out-loud during her reign. For my work which is partly based on the name Tudor, I am still comfortable with my theories. Elizabeth and her son(s) were Tudors and everybody knew it.

I am intensely intrigued at how effectively it was hushed! Was there a law? Was it passed on person to person? Printers had to know that it was not allowed. Were heads chopped off?

I'd love to know the history of the silence of the Tudor name.

Dr. Davis says, "...in Welsh documents the name of Tudor is 'celebrated' but it was 'considered an embarrassment in England'."

I feel like there is much more to it and an incredible story may be buried in that quiet period. That story should be told.

So Bacon knew he was a Tudor, named William. Born to the Queen of England who was a Tudor, but you couldn't say it. A secret wrapped in a secret!!

I'm eager to know more about the Veil that covered the Tudor name. Why? When? Who? How??

🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

You've obviously tried searching for "TIDIR" and any other variants?

Edited by Eric Roberts
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2 hours ago, Eric Roberts said:

You've obviously tried searching for "TIDIR" and any other variants?

I did indeed and did not see anything in English. Latin has all kinds of hits for "tudor" and variations, but many were false hits from OCR texts so that is why I narrowed down to English only.

The spelling of Tudor goes back to Owen and seems consistent before and after the Tudor silence in England. 😉

 

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In 1603 after Elizabeth's death, the Tudor name reappears.

Title: Queene El'zabeths losse, and King Iames his vvelcome
Author: H. S., fl. 1603.
Publication info: London : Printed by T[homas] C[reede] for Iohn Smythicke, and are to be sold at his shoppe in Saint Dunstons Church-yard in Fleetstreete, 1603.
 
 
Here are a few select lines from the poem too think about (bold emphasis is mine). They may be trying to saying something about the Tudor name and possible Bacon as well?
 
This caus'd my Muse her wishes to powre forth,
Some abler wit would shewe his Muses worth.
But since in vaine: she takes in hand the same,
And sings sad Anthems to Elizaes name.
What, is Elizaes name so soone forgot?
Scarce one is found to sing her dying praise,
Whom all admir'd and honor'd in her daies.
But whilest she liu'd: O God! yet still she liues
In heauen! I, and on earth. Her vertue giues
Her this: she liues in her late subiects hearts,
Shee liues in her successors vertuous parts,
Shee liues in him (euen in despight of Fate)
To whom she left her vertues, crowne, & state.
Her vertues fame haue built her such a tombe,
As shee shall liue euen till the day of doome:
 
Further down the poem:
 
Greenwich, VVestminster, Richmond, famous bee,
For shee was borne, crown'd, died in these three.
Henry the eigth (sprung from th'vnited Rose,
VVhich match for Englands good God did compose)
Had by his second choise this budde diuine,
VVhose lustre through the world so cleare did shine;
Elizabeth whom God Almightie gaue
Fulnesse of peace, and honor to the graue.
Fulnesse of God, so doth her name import:
How well th'euent and name together sort?
Sure theres a mysterie in Princes names,

For we do hope our royall L. King Iames
VVill proue a true Maintainer of the faith,
(As both his name and his iust title saith)*
 
Even further down:
 
Who though she liu'd and di'de a perfect maide,
Left such an Heire of whom it may be saide,
We lost the Iewell which we loued best,

Had it restor'd againe with interest.
We may well say; Had not our losse bene such,*
(T'is well we may so say) we had lost much.

Richmond it was first brought in Tudors name,
Richmond it was abolished the same.
 
Does this suggest that the Tudor name was silenced after the death of Edmund Tudor, 1st Earl of Richmond, the father of Henry VIII? Then after the death of Elizabeth it appears within weeks.
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The poem after the poem is curious as well.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A11235.0001.001/1:3?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

Ad Detractores Inuidus alterius rebus macrescit opimis.
SNarle on and spare not, Curres will snarle by kinde,
Momus to carpe at, needs must something finde.
To striue with such, is labour spent in vaine:
Though an Asse kicke, I will not kicke againe.
VVould any know who t'was did write this booke?
He that ne're thought so many should ore-looke
His eight houres follie: yet now, hopes to finde
Kinde censure of each well-deseruing minde.
Trusting his Maiestie will pardon grant;
Accept good will, beare with his Muses want.

H. S.

 

Who is "H.S."?

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On 11/12/2023 at 9:11 AM, Light-of-Truth said:

In 1603 after Elizabeth's death, the Tudor name reappears.

Title: Queene El'zabeths losse, and King Iames his vvelcome
Author: H. S., fl. 1603.
Publication info: London : Printed by T[homas] C[reede] for Iohn Smythicke, and are to be sold at his shoppe in Saint Dunstons Church-yard in Fleetstreete, 1603.
 
 
Here are a few select lines from the poem too think about (bold emphasis is mine). They may be trying to saying something about the Tudor name and possible Bacon as well?
 
This caus'd my Muse her wishes to powre forth,
Some abler wit would shewe his Muses worth.
But since in vaine: she takes in hand the same,
And sings sad Anthems to Elizaes name.
What, is Elizaes name so soone forgot?
Scarce one is found to sing her dying praise,
Whom all admir'd and honor'd in her daies.
But whilest she liu'd: O God! yet still she liues
In heauen! I, and on earth. Her vertue giues
Her this: she liues in her late subiects hearts,
Shee liues in her successors vertuous parts,
Shee liues in him (euen in despight of Fate)
To whom she left her vertues, crowne, & state.
Her vertues fame haue built her such a tombe,
As shee shall liue euen till the day of doome:
 
Further down the poem:
 
Greenwich, VVestminster, Richmond, famous bee,
For shee was borne, crown'd, died in these three.
Henry the eigth (sprung from th'vnited Rose,
VVhich match for Englands good God did compose)
Had by his second choise this budde diuine,
VVhose lustre through the world so cleare did shine;
Elizabeth whom God Almightie gaue
Fulnesse of peace, and honor to the graue.
Fulnesse of God, so doth her name import:
How well th'euent and name together sort?
Sure theres a mysterie in Princes names,

For we do hope our royall L. King Iames
VVill proue a true Maintainer of the faith,
(As both his name and his iust title saith)*
 
Even further down:
 
Who though she liu'd and di'de a perfect maide,
Left such an Heire of whom it may be saide,
We lost the Iewell which we loued best,

Had it restor'd againe with interest.
We may well say; Had not our losse bene such,*
(T'is well we may so say) we had lost much.

Richmond it was first brought in Tudors name,
Richmond it was abolished the same.
 
Does this suggest that the Tudor name was silenced after the death of Edmund Tudor, 1st Earl of Richmond, the father of Henry VIII? Then after the death of Elizabeth it appears within weeks.

Just a preliminary observation, without analyzing the whole poem, as should be done: these lines

"This caus'd my Muse her wishes to powre forth,
Some abler wit would shewe his Muses worth."

suggest to me that Bacon himself might have authored that 1612 poem. In his dedication of his "Arguments of the Law ... in Certain Great and Difficult Cases" to the Society of Gray's Inn, he wrote, "It is true, I could have wished some abler person had begun; but it is a kind of order sometimes to begin with the meanest." [There's his ambiguous use of the ambiguous word "meanest."] Nevertheless, thus much I may say with modesty ...." (Spedding 7:523-24). Spedding thinks the Dedication was likely written "before Mich. Term, 1613." Bacon's "Arguments of the Law' were first printed in 1730 (Spedding, preface to "Arguments of the Law," 7:519).

Second, "Richmond," I think, refers in this poem to Henry VII himself (as he is called in Shakespeare's play Richard III), rather than to his father Edmund Tudor  (son of (French) Catherine, widow of Henry V, and the Welshman of noble family, "Owen Tudor" who was given the last name "Tudor" by the British, but in Welsh his last name would have been "Maredudd" or "Meredith"). Henry VII's father Edmund was also an Earl of Richmond, but he was never a king.  Henry VII's claim to the throne was tenuous, but his offspring's (Henry VIII) claim was better, through Henry VII's marriage to Elizabeth of York (Plantagenet).

Some links: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tudor-18

Note comments here: https://thehistoryofengland.co.uk/resource/family-tree-the-house-of-tudor/.

It seems most likely that the person(s) who wrote the name "Tudor" in those poems were person(s) who cared the most that the name "Tudor" not be forgotten. Who would care the most? Well, Bacon.

I'm citing internet sources, so please take them with a grain of salt. This article calls Edmund the first Earl of Richmond, https://www.tudorsociety.com/edmund-tudor-1st-earl-of-richmond/, but Wikipedia reports the title went back to the time of William the Conqueror (who was himself illegitimate), to Breton warrior Alan Rufus who was related to William the Conqueror. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Richmond.

It can be very hard to find anything on an internet search for the "Robart Tidir" inscription, anywhere other than SirBacon. https://sirbacon.org/gallery/tower.html These search terms brought it right up: "sirbacon.org "Tidir" Earl of Essex."

Just to note also that Henry VII was born at Pembroke Castle and the First Folio was dedicated to the 3rd Earl of Pembroke, William Herbert, and his brother Philip Herbert who later became the 4th Earl of Pembroke? Bacon had studied the life of Henry VII, writing his biography, The History of the Reign of Henry the Seventh (1625).

Edited by Christie Waldman
add: if not by Bacon, then "abler wit" an allusion to Bacon
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1 hour ago, Christie Waldman said:

Just a preliminary observation, without analyzing the whole poem, as should be done: these lines

"This caus'd my Muse her wishes to powre forth,
Some abler wit would shewe his Muses worth."

suggest to me that Bacon himself might have authored that 1612 poem.

Funny, when I first saw this poem a couple days or so ago, I barely touched it. Mostly I only looked at the Tudor highlight in my search.

Richmond it was first brought in Tudors name,
Richmond it was abolished the same.

It was enough to bring me back. On the next visit when I started to read it, I heard Bacon's voice.

But since in vaine: she takes in hand the same,
And sings sad Anthems to Elizaes name.
What, is Elizaes name so soone forgot?
It cannot be: how then? she heares them not.

I reminded myself I see Bacon everywhere, so tried to calm myself a bit.

Yet I could not fully calm my mind.

Also, at first I thought this was a poem to James I by someone trying to kiss his butt, which everyone wanted to do of course. But when reading more than once, saw what appeared to be clever double-speak and hints pointing to Bacon/Shakespeare topics that we see in the Sonnets and First Folio!

This morning I looked again seeing even more. Then for the first time read the poem that follows the James I poem. What a surprise, what a thrill!

VVould any know who t'was did write this booke?
He that ne're thought so many should ore-looke
His eight houres follie: yet now, hopes to finde
Kinde censure of each well-deseruing minde.

 

Seriously? Possibly the first mention of the name Tudor in England after a lifetime or more of silence might be by Bacon himself? It all makes sense.

The first letters of that closing poem are, "ASMTTWHHKTA":

image.png.789818d448e36af06c7016e76a56b2eb.png

 

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A11235.0001.001/1:3?rgn=div1;view=fulltext
Queene El'zabeths losse, and King Iames his vvelcome
H. S., fl. 1603.

image.png.e3ac3911b1130e563179440ba3dcca9f.png

136 is the Simple cipher for BACON SHAKESAPERE.

240 is the Kaye cipher for ELIZABETH.

So we have a potential cipher signature hit.

I was not familiar with "Momus", so looked it up. "The god of mockery and censure."

"Accept good will, beare with his Muses want.""

Who is H.S.??

H.S. is 52 Kaye cipher, the Simple cipher for WILL.

 

 

 

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What a shame, and what a surprise. Folger's does not share its copy with us. I bet they have their own reasons for keeping it from well-deseruing mindes. 😉

https://collections.folger.edu/detail/h-s-queene-el'zabeths-losse-and-king-iames-his-vvelcome/6c2c34d3-2bde-490a-8a78-40c73c0273fa

image.png.b8b00e7c6d5a115b13733a16d1e264c3.png

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On the main poem of the book...

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A11235.0001.001/1:2?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

Let's compare a few lines between H.S. and Bacon.

H.S.:

Shee liues in him (euen in despight of Fate)
To whom she left her vertues, crowne, & state.
Her vertues fame haue built her such a tombe,
As shee shall liue euen till the day of doome:

Shakespeare:

TThy guift,,thy tables,are within my braine
Full characterd with lasting memory,
Which shall aboue that idle rancke remaine
Beyond all date euen to eternity.

What is the message on this line:

H.S.:

Her soule (no doubt) can now alreadie tell
What guerdon Princes haue that gouerne well.
My Muse dares vndertake for to disclose
Nothing, but what the meanest reader knowes.

Bacon's muse, Shakespeare, dares to disclose "Nothing" (defined as cipher)?

Listen to these words that are written by someone who knew Elizabeth:

But we put on too fast, let's backe returne,
And thinking on our losse againe let's mourne.
I will not speake of her exterior parts,
But of of her minde, adorn'd with liberall Arts:
Yet he that would describe them with his quill,
Had need of Homer's or a greater skill.
Not England only, but the world doth know
Her learned wisedome: then what need I show
What's so well knowne? how each Embassador
Shee answere could without Interpretor?
Greeke, Latin, French, Spanish, Italian,
Shee vnderstood: and spake them euery one,
Or of her knowledge in diuinitie?
Her practise show'd it most apparantly.
VVhy tell I this? but to lament her death,
Vnder whose happie raigne I first drew breath.

This rose is cropt, alasse, a heauie case:

But that t'is planted in a better place.

 

I might be back later...

 

 

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Hi everyone,

It seems that Francis Bacon mentions the name Tudor only twice in The history of the reign of King Henry VII, on one page :

https://archive.org/details/baconshistoryofr00bacouoft/page/138/mode/2up?q=tudor

As I did not find a copy of the 1622 Edition on the net, I do not know if "Tudor" was the spelling used by Francis Bacon in 1622.

And It could be interesting to know on what page appears the name TUDOR in the First Edition.

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55 minutes ago, Allisnum2er said:

Hi everyone,

It seems that Francis Bacon mentions the name Tudor only twice in The history of the reign of King Henry VII, on one page :

https://archive.org/details/baconshistoryofr00bacouoft/page/138/mode/2up?q=tudor

As I did not find a copy of the 1622 Edition on the net, I do not know if "Tudor" was the spelling used by Francis Bacon in 1622.

And It could be interesting to know on what page appears the name TUDOR in the First Edition.

Thank you Yann!! Look at this.

1622:

https://archive.org/details/historieofraigne00baco/page/154/mode/1up

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image.png.ef9d305d9f3acf4eeddf7c194facee65.png

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T A A A A A A A A A A A T
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The name Tidder is in print in 1594 on page 47 of A conference about the next succession to the crowne of Ingland diuided into tvvo partes. by Robert Pasons, a name that is known.

But now to go foreward to declare the issue of thes three sonnes of Iohn of Gaunt by Ca∣therine Swinford, two of them, that is, Tho∣mas * duke of Excester, and Henry Cardinal and Bishop of Winchester, dyed vvithout issue, Iohn the eldest sonne that vvas earle of So∣merset had issue two sonnes, Iohn and Ed∣mond, Iohn that vvas duke of Somerset had issue one only daughter, named Margeret vvho vvas married to Edmond Tidder earle of Richmond, by whom he had a sonne named * Henry, earle also of Richmond, vvho after vvas afterward made king, by the name of Henry the seuēth, & was father to K. Henry the eight, and grand father to the Q. maiestie that now is, & this is the issue of Iohn the first sonne to the duke of Somerset.

A. Phoenix mentioned the name Tidder (page 2) of FRANCIS BACON AND HIS EARLIEST SHAKESPEARE PLAY HAMLET A TUDOR FAMILY TRAGEDY:

https://sirbacon.org/FRANCIS BACON AND HIS EARLIEST SHAKESPEARE PLAY HAMLET A TUDOR FAMILY TRAGEDY.pdf

image.png.f49211361faca76dae6ba73322431ac9.png

 

 

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Here is something interesting ...

I found this book published in 1584 :

https://www.rct.uk/collection/1024598/the-historie-of-cambria-now-called-wales-a-part-of-the-most-famous-yland-of

The historie of Cambria, now called Wales: a part of the most famous yland of Brytaine, written in the Brytish language aboue two hundreth yeares past: translated into English by H. Lhoyd Gentleman: corrected, augmented, and continued out of records and best approoued authors, by Dauid Powel Doctor in diuinitie.

https://archive.org/details/historieofcambri00cara/page/n8/mode/2up

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In this book the spelling for Tudor is Tuder.

image.png.5e92d2c1cb358ae223b4fd3561bf49f8.png

https://archive.org/details/historieofcambri00cara/page/390/mode/1up?view=theater

In the following Edition published in 1697 all the "Tuder" were replaced by "Tudor".

https://books.google.vg/books?id=PRoGuF1Ju_0C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

But in this Edition published in 1811, all the "Tuder" remain except one on page ... 287 !

https://www.google.fr/books/edition/The_historie_of_Cambria_by_st_Caradoc_tr/-gEIAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=tudor&pg=PA342&printsec=frontcover

image.png.e134bfebdb17d82aa54a6bee314f44f5.png

 

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20 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I just wanted to say, the two references to Henry "Tudor," are spoken by Perkin Warbeck, the fraudulent claimant to Henry's throne, in his speech introducing himself to the Scottish King James IV (in 1495) who had welcomed him on 27 Nov 1495 through July 1497 (Brian Vickers, ed., The History of the Reign of King Henry VIII (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998), 124 fn 4).

According to Vickers, Bacon's source for Warbeck's speech was Speed (Vickers, 125). It might be worth checking if Speed used the words "Tidder" or "Tudor."

Vickers says, "That Bacon should provide a major speech for Perkin, 'an imaginative effort ordinarily reserved ... for figures of such stature as Cardinal Morton, King Henry, or a French ambassador, shows the extend to which he makes Perkin a 'focal character' (citing Judith H. Anderson, Biographical Truth. The Representation of Historical Persons in Tudor-Stuart Writing (New Haven and London, 1984), p. 181). But

In the Vickers 1998 edition, Perkin Warbeck's declaration is pp. 125 - 128 (148 - 153 in the 1622 edition; 136 - 140 in the 1902 Lumby ed.).

Edited by Christie Waldman
to add information
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55 minutes ago, Christie Waldman said:

  

I just wanted to say, the two references to Henry "Tudor," are spoken by Perkin Warbeck, the fraudulent claimant to Henry's throne, in his speech introducing himself to the Scottish King James IV (in 1495) who had welcomed him on 27 Nov 1495 through July 1497 (Brian Vickers, ed., The History of the Reign of King Henry VIII (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998), 124 fn 4).

According to Vickers, Bacon's source for Warbeck's speech was Speed (Vickers, 125). It might be worth checking if Speed used the words "Tidder" or "Tudor."

Vickers says, "That Bacon should provide a major speech for Perkin, 'an imaginative effort ordinarily reserved ... for figures of such stature as Cardinal Morton, King Henry, or a French ambassador, shows the extend to which he makes Perkin a 'focal character' (citing Judith H. Anderson, Biographical Truth. The Representation of Historical Persons in Tudor-Stuart Writing (New Haven and London, 1984), p. 181). But

In the Vickers 1998 edition, Perkin Warbeck's declaration is pp. 125 - 128 (148 - 153 in the 1622 edition; 136 - 140 in the 1902 Lumby ed.).

Hi Christie,

Your post with your reference to Warbeck's speech led me to this play published in 1634 :

"The chronicle historie of Perkin VVarbeck : a strange truth : acted (some-times) by the Queenes Maiesties servants at the Phenix in Drurie lane"

https://archive.org/details/chroniclehistori00ford/page/n63/mode/2up?q=Tudor

image.png.0d9b65ba85b3f8e54b0cb8a90710480b.png

We get closer to the goal ! 🙂 

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32 minutes ago, Allisnum2er said:

I finally found the grail !!! 😁

The POEMS of Michael Drayton (1613 Edition)...

  image.png.ba34801471037757b9efd774a5515eee.png    image.png.238fb9aba65de4a828f1e396c2392e87.png

https://archive.org/details/draytonpoems/page/n243/mode/2up?q=Tudor

Link to the 1609 Edition :

https://www.google.fr/books/edition/Poems_by_Michael_Drayton_Esquire_Newly_C/WnBnAAAAcAAJ?hl=fr&gbpv=1

 

Michael Drayton mentions Owen Tudor through the late 1500's, spelled as such. Or at least his references come up during that period in text searches. He does not venture into Henry or Elizabeth's surname, to save his neck I imagine. But he is definietly documented as spelling Tudor as Tudor during the Shakespeare period.

Unfortunately the British Museum Search seems to time out. It must be driving so many people crazy being the 400 year celebration of Shakespeare's First Folio!

https://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/

It was such a delicious juicy unexplored resource (at least by me) when it worked!! UGH!!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Allisnum2er said:

Hi Christie,

Your post with your reference to Warbeck's speech led me to this play published in 1634 :

"The chronicle historie of Perkin VVarbeck : a strange truth : acted (some-times) by the Queenes Maiesties servants at the Phenix in Drurie lane"

https://archive.org/details/chroniclehistori00ford/page/n63/mode/2up?q=Tudor

image.png.0d9b65ba85b3f8e54b0cb8a90710480b.png

We get closer to the goal ! 🙂 

According to Brian Vickers, John Ford acknowledged that this play of his was based on Bacon's account of Perkin Warbeck in his History of the Reign of King Henry VII. (Vickers ed., xliv). Vickers is author of The Collected Works of John Ford (4 vols) (Oxford University Press). It's in either vol 2 or 3 I think; I've seen the tables of contents for vols 1 and 4.

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The Early English Books Online - Corpora might reveal additional titles. It's a little slow to use if you don't have an institutional affiliation, but it can be done, with patience. https://www.english-corpora.org/eebo/. It covers printed books and broadsides. You will see that some of the sources you have already mentioned show up in it.

I think someone spelling the name "Tidir" (how the Welsh would pronounce it) was saying they identified as Welsh, and/or with Owen Tudor himself (who, I would say, was unfairly executed), using the spelling the British gave to the man's name.

This source says he chose to Anglicize his name, taking his grandfather's first name of Tudur as his last name rather than taking his father's first name of Maredudd as his last name which was the traditional Welsh way, but I read some time ago that it was the English who Anglicized (shortened, from "Owain ap Maredudd ap Tudur" to Owen Tudur or Tudor") his name when he came to their court in his youth. That seems perfectly likely and makes more sense to me. Like when people's names got changed when they came through immigration at Ellis Island. https://gw.geneanet.org/comrade28?lang=en&n=tudor&oc=0&p=owen

 

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