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To The Memorie of the deceased Authour Maister W. Shakespeare by Leonard Digges & the Rosicrucian-Freemasonic Stratford Monument commissioned by Francis Bacon


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8 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

Nope, it's not you, but it could be what you say if there are any occasions of it being sufficiently unwarranted, ridiculous or based in the magical. This comes with the territory of being criticized for saying what one says. It is something we all invite upon ourselves by deciding to open our mouths with conviction. Opposing ideas have the ability to annihilate themselves when brought together. They can't exist in the same space as statements of fact. The people need not annihilate themselves. 

The suggestion that I am aiming digs is an ad hominem attack and a form of blaming the potential victim for being responsive to an attempt at recruitment. Opposing efforts at recruitment isn't really a dig. One has to imagine a personal dimension to it. I assume that is what you are doing with me. I do not perceive that the attempt at recruitment will work on me. I would not want it to work on others without a proper skeptical treatment. I'd love for there to be proofs of things. Don't get me wrong on that point.

I do not read every comment, and when I do read one that is next in line to one I do read I may, for whatever reason, be triggered enough to criticize. What I have observed is that since I have openly criticized the overly and incorrectly used word "proof" it has been thrown out even more often cavalierly. It may, or may not, be an attempt to prod or to plant a flag. It could be a defensive reaction that is based out of fear that not enough has been offered or that more of the same will surely help. It may just be that I am looking in the wrong threads if I do not want to encounter that. The current interactions on this site seems to be in a few threads heavy on the allegation of proofs, though, and that has meant that I have been exposed to what is there when I look. There may be many other occasions of people claiming proofs I seem to be unaffected by. It's not much to ask that you not obsess over what you see. And please, kindly stop speaking for the one without a voice. It's giving this place a decidedly cultish feel.

Where did I say I knew Dee personally? I have no such delusion. It's pretty easy to demonstrate he lived before my time, and that there is no way for him to be speaking to me, or me with him, from the dead. All I will ever encounter are people speaking for him or in his name. That's not a suggestion I made. Dee was a charlatan and a con man. He fumbled around with Enochian magic which is itself a massive delusion based in folk tales (if it was actually believed to be real). That is to say he used what he had to play with to convince people of things. More power to him if he succeeded. Among the gullible were no less than the non virgin Queen herself--a wonderful patron and a perfect mark. The same unfortunate reality existed with Queen Victoria and her friends like Constance Pott. You could have met them at a séance after all. Nice ladies, to be sure...except that Victoria really wasn't a nice lady when we look into it. Shades of King James...Nice people are a myth if you ask me. Just cross them...

We have the benefit of looking back to these people's actions to know some of their beliefs. Scientists eventually came to see a very large swath of the lingering hermeticists and alchemists as scientific impostors,  because in time it was shown that what they were speaking of and dreaming of was unattainable, and in some important instances, impossible to achieve. Those who lived long enough to know better may have changed their views, but for some old beliefs they persisted and kept finding a home despite the change in the state of the knowledge. The line in the sand, philosophically speaking, is Bacon's method. I do feel I must speak or Bacon here before he is made out to be a forever astrologer, an ancient hermeticist, a stuck in time alchemist, a seer and a prophet to serve the beliefs of some modern day mystics looking for an English speaking idol. If he were alive today would be teach at Liberty University in the good old US of A? 

Astrologer as a profession... That's a hoot. You mean like Joan Quigley who was the Reagans' astrologer? A fool and his money are soon parted.  A profession is a real thing. What one claims to do in one's profession need not be. The doctor is the gatekeeper of the prescription pad and some representation of a professed business rationale towards medicine. One can very easily distrust the business rationale for the existence of the doctor as a professor of the business faith. The Dee question is a whole other ball of wax isn't it? Determinism versus non-determinism.  The world in which we can know the future in fine detail and where things repeat like clockwork is a demonstrable fiction. Time travelling is not possible. There is no prophecy in our world that is not a self fulfilling prophecy. The dream is not a tool to know anything with certainty. It is the evidence of the power of our minds armed with imagination to synthesize narratives. Guessing right will always be possible.

Astrologer's produce belief, and producing belief is real enough. The power of the belief over the person is the magic in the wand. There is no other kind. This has led to a very troubling stating of the idea that one can make his own reality by controlling his beliefs. This is demonstrably horrible logic. There will always be the placebo effect to try and prop everything else with, I'm afraid. One impressive instance of a physiological consequence to the individual for its inner chemical response to a created mind state has been extrapolated to the non living with forces no one has demonstrated exist. Force isn't even the right word, because that would imply particles and there are none for that in the entirety of the energy spectrum. I suppose it all has to fall upon the photon and light. That, at least, has a long history of being used to demonstrate otherworldly action.

There can be no respect for certain ideas, and they should not be protected by insisting that one should love the person championing them. Love itself is too fuzzy a word to invoke. To love someone has meant in many a religious text that ideas needed to be beat out of a person violently. The tribe has always attempted to do information control. 

What there may be not enough of in this world is the sort of "shunning" that gets practiced by the small enclaves of strong believers (credit goes to the Mormons and Jehova Witnesses). They know how to protect ideas. We've collectively invited everyone to the party (freedom to speak as one wants publicly) in hopes that the mutual exchanges could be observable and that reason could prevail in the convincing of young minds before small factions reproduce their way into being large ones. You see this commendable attitude among the champions of reason (Sam Harris, Noam Chomsky, Bertrand Russel...). We're not supposed to want to silence anyone if we want there to be an arena were reason can interact with the unreasonable. What do you want Kate? Do you want there to be no backlash against some claims? Do you want me to coddle you and to allow you your beliefs around synchronicity and other examples of apophenia so you can feel comfortable? I would not do it to my child if I had one. How does the hierarchy of love work?  There has to be some recognition and expectation that statements are going to be challenged if we have a goal to get to what we can show and know. 

To the degree that the endeavor began to employ observation and empiric data Bacon, Kepler and others became proto scientists and fledgling astronomers based in reason.  Kepler was chasing a principle that he believed was fundamental (the constancy or immutability of something that was an imagined property of God). He numbered his Laws in three. There's ample evidence that even when he deduced correct physical realities he was giving them biased interpretations which favored ideas of musical harmony (a Pythagorean view of God). I hear your objections, and I agree with them to a certain point. Bacon and Kepler are not yet scientists. None of us are if we are honest. They were, and we are, still under the illusion that the science can come and sanction beliefs that we have an intuition about. Newton was no different. By the time we get to Darwin things got seriously threatening for some people's beliefs. Even today I find it interesting that some can compartmentalize the scientific method and believe in the unreasonable to the point of harboring both. That is only possible because of the inability to know and the power of suggestion. This will always offer a cornucopia of possibilities to people with vivid imaginations and strong biases. We have a long way to go if we value knowing. I still firmly believe that there are things that are unprovable that will follow us because they still seem possible. It is not helped by the fact that all our better explanations are getting harder and harder to grasp. The fact that Nature is bathed in complexity makes it hard for anyone to relate to it, especially the young and impressionable. That troubles those who would want to know Nature with simple rules, be it three of them or seven of them.

I can easily desist if I do not read. Is that what you want to have happen? I won't desist out of a feeling I must cower or earn your love. I will still continue to interact publicly to have reason and the unreasonable clash. It's what reasonable people want. Not sure how you're going to react to it...Should I care?

A lot of things can be avoided if some would get off their high horse and desist in using "proof" for effect. There is no proof that the authorship question is even warranted. I've seen it all when it comes to the suggestions. None of it adds up to a proof. There is a lot of proof that Bacon wrote things which are damaging to myths and bad syllogism. I would wager that I am on he right side of Bacon just from having read Bacon. If I am to know Bacon from reading Shakespeare then the desired end is already achieved for some.

 

You just spent 1800 words talking to yourself. Please refrain!

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11 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

The line in the sand, philosophically speaking, is Bacon's method. I do feel I must speak or Bacon here before he is made out to be a forever astrologer, an ancient hermeticist, a stuck in time alchemist, a seer and a prophet to serve the beliefs of some modern day mystics looking for an English speaking idol.

Bacon's method is a valid path in his teachings. It is part of what he left publicly for us all. Not as Shakespeare, but as himself as Bacon.

I'm totally in on the rest of your statement. And you have no "proof" those parts of Bacon's life are not as important. You have your favorite aspect, maybe a specialty of yours, but what you suggest outside your scope resonates in my mind and I thank you for the reminder!

Your line in the sand has been crossed many years ago. You stand up for his scientific method, but doesn't his philosophy expand beyond his scientific method? Bacon was a visionary as well.

Whether Bacon is a prophet to some is a non-issue. A freshly opened sunflower is a prophet on the right morning to some.

11 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

I still firmly believe that there are things that are unprovable that will follow us because they still seem possible. It is not helped by the fact that all our better explanations are getting harder and harder to grasp. The fact that Nature is bathed in complexity makes it hard for anyone to relate to it, especially the young and impressionable. That troubles those who would want to know Nature with simple rules, be it three of them or seven of them.

The instant we as Baconions have that single "proof" that Bacon was Shakespeare, the entire debate will be over. In the mean time we keep building a beautiful monument of evidence far surpassing any other Authorship candidate. Your claim that the Authorship question is not important was easily destroyed because for some of us it is important.

As far as Nature, and Bacon's method, Quantum Physics is destroying everything we ever thought we knew. Time? Space? Locality is being redefined. Those concepts pierce a lot of veils and shatter a lot of walls. Maybe Dee can talk with us, not from the dead, but when he was alive as we are now across a thread of time/space we do not know yet. Bacon's method is on the way to accepting that could be real. In fact, physics is suggesting it.

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7 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Bacon's method is a valid path in his teachings. It is part of what he left publicly for us all. Not as Shakespeare, but as himself as Bacon.

I'm totally in on the rest of your statement. And you have no "proof" those parts of Bacon's life are not as important. You have your favorite aspect, maybe a specialty of yours, but what you suggest outside your scope resonates in my mind and I thank you for the reminder!

Your line in the sand has been crossed many years ago. You stand up for his scientific method, but doesn't his philosophy expand beyond his scientific method? Bacon was a visionary as well.

Whether Bacon is a prophet to some is a non-issue. A freshly opened sunflower is a prophet on the right morning to some.

The instant we as Baconions have that single "proof" that Bacon was Shakespeare, the entire debate will be over. In the mean time we keep building a beautiful monument of evidence far surpassing any other Authorship candidate. Your claim that the Authorship question is not important was easily destroyed because for some of us it is important.

As far as Nature, and Bacon's method, Quantum Physics is destroying everything we ever thought we knew. Time? Space? Locality is being redefined. Those concepts pierce a lot of veils and shatter a lot of walls. Maybe Dee can talk with us, not from the dead, but when he was alive as we are now across a thread of time/space we do not know yet. Bacon's method is on the way to accepting that could be real. In fact, physics is suggesting it.

Not one of us, nor anyone on Earth, including CJ, can capture and comprehend his true nature and spirit. Beyond knowing. Perhaps this is why we have come together here, not to negate but to admire. There is a touch of wholiness in every selfless intuition.

Edited by Eric Roberts
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3 hours ago, Eric Roberts said:

Not one of us, nor anyone on Earth, including CJ, can capture and comprehend his true nature and spirit. Beyond knowing. Perhaps this is why we have come together here, not to negate but to admire. There is a touch of wholiness in every selfless intuition.

 I like that. And this is poetry:

 

11 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Whether Bacon is a prophet to some is a non-issue. A freshly opened sunflower is a prophet on the right morning to some.

 

Circumstantial evidence is that "not based on actual personal knowledge or observation of the facts in controversy, but of other facts from which deductions are drawn, showing indirectly the facts sought to be proved. The proof of certain facts and circumstances in a given case from jury may infer other connected facts which usually and reasonable follow according to the common experience of mankind.  Evidence of facts or circumstances from which the existence or nonexistence of fact in issue may be inferred. Inferences drawn from facts proved." Black's Law Dictionary.

In other words, we don't have anyone with personal knowledge we can put on the witness stand and question. Do we have a smoking gun? We have the Shakespeare play fragment manuscript which Maureen Ward-Gandy gave her professional forensic opinion that it was in Bacon's own handwriting.

Well, I could go on and on, ad infinitum, with what we have.

We have acrostics. Historically, It was not uncommon to prove authorship of a literary work by acrostic. I gave an example in my book of a French work, Le Pelerinage de l'ame (The Book of the Pylgremage of the Sowle, by Guilliame de DeGuileville, established only by acrostic (p. 66). (translated 1413, first published by William Caxton in 1483. Check out this book, it has gorgeous illustrations from Egerton MS 615. Edited by Kathleen Cust (London, 1859). Hathitrust, https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015053684802. The section in my book on the "Four Daughters of God" and the tapestry that was once on display at Hampton Court depicting them: Mercy, Truth, Justice, and Peace." (my book, p. 62, fn 8, citing Hope Traver, The Four Daughters of God, a Study (Bryn Mawr, 1907), p. 163, n. 15. (Her 1925 work is The Four Daughters of God, a Mirror.)

In one of her papers, I remember Sophie Weeks talking about Bacon's method of working, how he doesn't express his whole thought on a topic in one place in his writings, but scatters it around among his various works.

My take on this (without looking up and re-reading Weeks' article) was that he seems to lead us around from one work to another to get the whole thought, with clues.  He is leading us on a treasure hunt. Bacon named one writing Filum labyrinthum, an allusion to Ariadne's thread that helped Theseus escape from the labyrinth after he killed the minotaur. Bacon includes the story in his Wisdom of the Ancients (as you know).

Tapestry, tapster. The play fragment that was found in binder's waste has been called the "tapster play" because it is an analogue to the tapster scene in Shakespeare's play, The First Part of Henry the Fourth. 

We can argue the "totality of the circumstances." One fact alone might not be enough to shift the balance on the scales for an open-minded person, but take all the facts together and see what you have. 

Two quotations I like:

Many literary critics seem to think that an hypothesis about obscure and remote questions of history can be refuted by a simple demand for the production of more evidence than in fact exists.—But the true test of an hypothesis, if it cannot be shewn to conflict with known truths, is the number of facts that it correlates, and explains.
—Francis MacDonald Cornford, The Origins of Attic Comedy (London: E. Arnold, 1914), 220. (quoted from my paper, "If Bacon is Shakespeare, What Questions Does That Answer?" this website, 11/27/2020.

And:

"The implication of a material fact is tantamount to a conclusion of law."

--J. H. Baker, ch 12, "Law Making," An Introduction to English Legal History, 4th ed. 202 (London: Butterworths, 1990), quoted in my book, Francis Bacon's Hidden Hand, 32).

(J. H. Baker, a British legal historian, is, however, on record, elsewhere, as a Stratfordian.)

A material fact is one essential to the case, necessary to determine the issue, without which it cannot be supported. Its proof would establish or refute one of essential elements of the case (Black's Law Dictionary). "Tantamount" means "just as good as, equivalent to, to amount to as much as."

Whether the statements of Heminge, Condell, and Jonson made in the First Folio can be taken at face value is a question of material fact. And so we try to show the evidence is not credible, that there are reasons for not taking it at face value.

I saw this on the internet: the truth welcomes questions. A lie does not like to be challenged (stated by Janice Dean, Instagram. I do not know anything more.).

Bacon: "A prudent question is, as it were, one half of wisdom." De Augmentis, Spedding 1:635.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Christie Waldman said:

My take on this (without looking up and re-reading Weeks' article) was that he seems to lead us around from one work to another to get the whole thought, with clues.  He is leading us on a treasure hunt. Bacon named one writing Filum labyrinthum, an allusion to Ariadne's thread that helped Theseus escape from the labyrinth after he killed the minotaur. Bacon includes the story in his Wisdom of the Ancients (as you know).

Hi Christie,

I totally agree with you.

For the anecdote, here is the first slide of the video I am working on and which I hope to finish soon. 😊

2023-08-14(4).png.29ec746ff8b9196816149a434d417a02.png

 

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2 minutes ago, Christie Waldman said:

Yann, we thank you for reading everything here in English. If I had to read everything in French, I could not be here.

Thank you Christie ! ❤️ Over time I find it easier and easier to read in English. In fact, what takes me the most time is writing in English. And the worst is my spoken English 😄.  I dread any Zoom Session in the language of Shakespeare. 😅

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Hi Christie,

I have not written on Hand D in the play Sir Thomas More, one of the more desperate Stratfordianisms.

As you know, the inference that the hand of William Shakspere of Stratford is found in this play is inferred from the six alleged signatures of the Stratford man. It has been repeatedly maintained that these six signatures are not written by the illiterate Shakspere (whose parents and children were illiterate) and were instead signed in his name by lawyers or lawyers clerks. 

I have reproduced below the chapter on the so-called signatures by Sir Edwin Durning-Lawrence in his Bacon is Shakespeare (New York: The John McBride Co., 1910), pp. 35-39.

I would also recommend for those who wish to investigate the matter further that they consult two works by the agnostic and urbane Sir George Greenwood, Shakspere's Handwriting (London: John Lane, n.d.) and The Shakespeare Signatures and "Sir Thomas More" (London: Cecil Palmer, n.d.). 

I have also reproduced two very important pages by Jane Cox, Prinicpal Keeper of Public Records at the Public Records Office from Shakespeare in the Public Records (London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office), pp. 33-34.

Finally, I have also reproduced from E. K. Chambers, William Shakespeare A Study of Facts and Problems (Oxford Clarendon Press, 1930), I, opposite p. 508 a facsimile of Hand D in Sir Thomas More for those who wish to satisfy themselves by a comparison with the so-called six signatures of the absurdity of the claim that they are both written in the same hand.

See also facsimiles of Hand D in Sir Thomas More at the Folger Shakespeare Library: https://shakespearedocumented.folger.edu/resource/document/shakespeares-handwriting-hand-d-booke-sir-thomas-more#:~:text=Hand D has been associated,S belongs to Anthony Munday.

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6 hours ago, Eric Roberts said:

Looks terrific, Yann! I can't wait to see how your new film might shed light on the workings of Lord Bacon.

Many thanks Eric . I am looking forward to sharing with the community the fruit of my research. For now, the editing of the video is a true brainteaser 😅. Alert Spoiler : If Daedalus is the one who constructed the Labyrinth, he also " became the author likewise of that ingenious device of the clue, by which the mazes of the labyrinth should be retraced" (The Wisdom of the Ancients), and he is the one who taught his son Icarus that the Middle Way was the safest one. 😉 

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On 9/12/2023 at 8:00 AM, RoyalCraftiness said:

Nope, it's not you, but it could be what you say if there are any occasions of it being sufficiently unwarranted, ridiculous or based in the magical. This comes with the territory of being criticized for saying what one says. It is something we all invite upon ourselves by deciding to open our mouths with conviction. Opposing ideas have the ability to annihilate themselves when brought together. They can't exist in the same space as statements of fact. The people need not annihilate themselves. 

The suggestion that I am aiming digs is an ad hominem attack and a form of blaming the potential victim for being responsive to an attempt at recruitment. Opposing efforts at recruitment isn't really a dig. One has to imagine a personal dimension to it. I assume that is what you are doing with me. I do not perceive that the attempt at recruitment will work on me. I would not want it to work on others without a proper skeptical treatment. I'd love for there to be proofs of things. Don't get me wrong on that point.

I do not read every comment, and when I do read one that is next in line to one I do read I may, for whatever reason, be triggered enough to criticize. What I have observed is that since I have openly criticized the overly and incorrectly used word "proof" it has been thrown out even more often cavalierly. It may, or may not, be an attempt to prod or to plant a flag. It could be a defensive reaction that is based out of fear that not enough has been offered or that more of the same will surely help. It may just be that I am looking in the wrong threads if I do not want to encounter that. The current interactions on this site seems to be in a few threads heavy on the allegation of proofs, though, and that has meant that I have been exposed to what is there when I look. There may be many other occasions of people claiming proofs I seem to be unaffected by. It's not much to ask that you not obsess over what you see. And please, kindly stop speaking for the one without a voice. It's giving this place a decidedly cultish feel.

Where did I say I knew Dee personally? I have no such delusion. It's pretty easy to demonstrate he lived before my time, and that there is no way for him to be speaking to me, or me with him, from the dead. All I will ever encounter are people speaking for him or in his name. That's not a suggestion I made. Dee was a charlatan and a con man. He fumbled around with Enochian magic which is itself a massive delusion based in folk tales (if it was actually believed to be real). That is to say he used what he had to play with to convince people of things. More power to him if he succeeded. Among the gullible were no less than the non virgin Queen herself--a wonderful patron and a perfect mark. The same unfortunate reality existed with Queen Victoria and her friends like Constance Pott. You could have met them at a séance after all. Nice ladies, to be sure...except that Victoria really wasn't a nice lady when we look into it. Shades of King James...Nice people are a myth if you ask me. Just cross them...

We have the benefit of looking back to these people's actions to know some of their beliefs. Scientists eventually came to see a very large swath of the lingering hermeticists and alchemists as scientific impostors,  because in time it was shown that what they were speaking of and dreaming of was unattainable, and in some important instances, impossible to achieve. Those who lived long enough to know better may have changed their views, but for some old beliefs they persisted and kept finding a home despite the change in the state of the knowledge. The line in the sand, philosophically speaking, is Bacon's method. I do feel I must speak or Bacon here before he is made out to be a forever astrologer, an ancient hermeticist, a stuck in time alchemist, a seer and a prophet to serve the beliefs of some modern day mystics looking for an English speaking idol. If he were alive today would be teach at Liberty University in the good old US of A? 

Astrologer as a profession... That's a hoot. You mean like Joan Quigley who was the Reagans' astrologer? A fool and his money are soon parted.  A profession is a real thing. What one claims to do in one's profession need not be. The doctor is the gatekeeper of the prescription pad and some representation of a professed business rationale towards medicine. One can very easily distrust the business rationale for the existence of the doctor as a professor of the business faith. The Dee question is a whole other ball of wax isn't it? Determinism versus non-determinism.  The world in which we can know the future in fine detail and where things repeat like clockwork is a demonstrable fiction. Time travelling is not possible. There is no prophecy in our world that is not a self fulfilling prophecy. The dream is not a tool to know anything with certainty. It is the evidence of the power of our minds armed with imagination to synthesize narratives. Guessing right will always be possible.

Astrologer's produce belief, and producing belief is real enough. The power of the belief over the person is the magic in the wand. There is no other kind. This has led to a very troubling stating of the idea that one can make his own reality by controlling his beliefs. This is demonstrably horrible logic. There will always be the placebo effect to try and prop everything else with, I'm afraid. One impressive instance of a physiological consequence to the individual for its inner chemical response to a created mind state has been extrapolated to the non living with forces no one has demonstrated exist. Force isn't even the right word, because that would imply particles and there are none for that in the entirety of the energy spectrum. I suppose it all has to fall upon the photon and light. That, at least, has a long history of being used to demonstrate otherworldly action.

There can be no respect for certain ideas, and they should not be protected by insisting that one should love the person championing them. Love itself is too fuzzy a word to invoke. To love someone has meant in many a religious text that ideas needed to be beat out of a person violently. The tribe has always attempted to do information control. 

What there may be not enough of in this world is the sort of "shunning" that gets practiced by the small enclaves of strong believers (credit goes to the Mormons and Jehova Witnesses). They know how to protect ideas. We've collectively invited everyone to the party (freedom to speak as one wants publicly) in hopes that the mutual exchanges could be observable and that reason could prevail in the convincing of young minds before small factions reproduce their way into being large ones. You see this commendable attitude among the champions of reason (Sam Harris, Noam Chomsky, Bertrand Russel...). We're not supposed to want to silence anyone if we want there to be an arena were reason can interact with the unreasonable. What do you want Kate? Do you want there to be no backlash against some claims? Do you want me to coddle you and to allow you your beliefs around synchronicity and other examples of apophenia so you can feel comfortable? I would not do it to my child if I had one. How does the hierarchy of love work?  There has to be some recognition and expectation that statements are going to be challenged if we have a goal to get to what we can show and know. 

To the degree that the endeavor began to employ observation and empiric data Bacon, Kepler and others became proto scientists and fledgling astronomers based in reason.  Kepler was chasing a principle that he believed was fundamental (the constancy or immutability of something that was an imagined property of God). He numbered his Laws in three. There's ample evidence that even when he deduced correct physical realities he was giving them biased interpretations which favored ideas of musical harmony (a Pythagorean view of God). I hear your objections, and I agree with them to a certain point. Bacon and Kepler are not yet scientists. None of us are if we are honest. They were, and we are, still under the illusion that the science can come and sanction beliefs that we have an intuition about. Newton was no different. By the time we get to Darwin things got seriously threatening for some people's beliefs. Even today I find it interesting that some can compartmentalize the scientific method and believe in the unreasonable to the point of harboring both. That is only possible because of the inability to know and the power of suggestion. This will always offer a cornucopia of possibilities to people with vivid imaginations and strong biases. We have a long way to go if we value knowing. I still firmly believe that there are things that are unprovable that will follow us because they still seem possible. It is not helped by the fact that all our better explanations are getting harder and harder to grasp. The fact that Nature is bathed in complexity makes it hard for anyone to relate to it, especially the young and impressionable. That troubles those who would want to know Nature with simple rules, be it three of them or seven of them.

I can easily desist if I do not read. Is that what you want to have happen? I won't desist out of a feeling I must cower or earn your love. I will still continue to interact publicly to have reason and the unreasonable clash. It's what reasonable people want. Not sure how you're going to react to it...Should I care?

A lot of things can be avoided if some would get off their high horse and desist in using "proof" for effect. There is no proof that the authorship question is even warranted. I've seen it all when it comes to the suggestions. None of it adds up to a proof. There is a lot of proof that Bacon wrote things which are damaging to myths and bad syllogism. I would wager that I am on he right side of Bacon just from having read Bacon. If I am to know Bacon from reading Shakespeare then the desired end is already achieved for some.

 

I have just caught up on this.

I’m not happy with the tone of  your posts RC. Good to have you as a ‘counterbalance’ as Kate said and happy for all points of view, but in a polite and respectful manner please. LG

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17 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

Many thanks Eric . I am looking forward to sharing with the community the fruit of my research. For now, the editing of the video is a true brainteaser 😅. Alert Spoiler : If Daedalus is the one who constructed the Labyrinth, he also " became the author likewise of that ingenious device of the clue, by which the mazes of the labyrinth should be retraced" (The Wisdom of the Ancients), and he is the one who taught his son Icarus that the Middle Way was the safest one. 😉 

“Let me warn you, Icarus, to take the middle way, in case the moisture weighs down your wings, if you fly too low, or if you go too high, the sun scorches them. Travel between the extremes. And I order you not to aim towards Bootes, the Herdsman, or Helice, the Great Bear, or towards the drawn sword of Orion: take the course I show you!”
Ovid, VIII.183-235

https://www.thecollector.com/daedalus-and-icarus/

Thanks Yann. 

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On 9/13/2023 at 7:09 AM, Light-of-Truth said:

Avoided to what purpose?

What is Warranted?

Said someone to someone, jesting I think, as we are doing right now.

My proof about that question is that at least one person who is alive today who can answer that question with at least some "quality" proof is me. This silly Authorship Discussion has been the passion of my life since the day I heard of it and is the second most important part of my life.

Number 1 was piercing my Veil on April "Fooles" Day 1978 as a kid tripping my brains on Purple Microdot. OMG, the experience of being One with everything, when the Universe assured me Love is the Key is a biggie and will change how you experience every day after if you ever be there. But you, CJ have not even touched that scientific subject. You deny it is real. I can prove it is. LOL

You can debate the question of whether the "Authorship Debate" is warranted or not, but you already know it is a very important debate. Ask the Town of Avon. Is it really big for them?

It is big for me, and I can prove it. 😉

It is worth at least One Million Dollars!

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"we don't need no pro-vo-cation" as Pink Floyd might have sung. A challenge is not a challenge unless it is specific and backed with references. I trust Rob completely, because he wears not only his heart but his soul on his sleeve. Thanks mate.

Edited by Eric Roberts
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On 9/14/2023 at 12:27 AM, Christie Waldman said:

 I like that. And this is poetry:

 

Circumstantial evidence is that "not based on actual personal knowledge or observation of the facts in controversy, but of other facts from which deductions are drawn, showing indirectly the facts sought to be proved. The proof of certain facts and circumstances in a given case from jury may infer other connected facts which usually and reasonable follow according to the common experience of mankind.  Evidence of facts or circumstances from which the existence or nonexistence of fact in issue may be inferred. Inferences drawn from facts proved." Black's Law Dictionary.

In other words, we don't have anyone with personal knowledge we can put on the witness stand and question. Do we have a smoking gun? We have the Shakespeare play fragment manuscript which Maureen Ward-Gandy gave her professional forensic opinion that it was in Bacon's own handwriting.

Well, I could go on and on, ad infinitum, with what we have.

We have acrostics. Historically, It was not uncommon to prove authorship of a literary work by acrostic. I gave an example in my book of a French work, Le Pelerinage de l'ame (The Book of the Pylgremage of the Sowle, by Guilliame de DeGuileville, established only by acrostic (p. 66). (translated 1413, first published by William Caxton in 1483. Check out this book, it has gorgeous illustrations from Egerton MS 615. Edited by Kathleen Cust (London, 1859). Hathitrust, https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015053684802. The section in my book on the "Four Daughters of God" and the tapestry that was once on display at Hampton Court depicting them: Mercy, Truth, Justice, and Peace." (my book, p. 62, fn 8, citing Hope Traver, The Four Daughters of God, a Study (Bryn Mawr, 1907), p. 163, n. 15. (Her 1925 work is The Four Daughters of God, a Mirror.)

In one of her papers, I remember Sophie Weeks talking about Bacon's method of working, how he doesn't express his whole thought on a topic in one place in his writings, but scatters it around among his various works.

My take on this (without looking up and re-reading Weeks' article) was that he seems to lead us around from one work to another to get the whole thought, with clues.  He is leading us on a treasure hunt. Bacon named one writing Filum labyrinthum, an allusion to Ariadne's thread that helped Theseus escape from the labyrinth after he killed the minotaur. Bacon includes the story in his Wisdom of the Ancients (as you know).

Tapestry, tapster. The play fragment that was found in binder's waste has been called the "tapster play" because it is an analogue to the tapster scene in Shakespeare's play, The First Part of Henry the Fourth. 

We can argue the "totality of the circumstances." One fact alone might not be enough to shift the balance on the scales for an open-minded person, but take all the facts together and see what you have. 

Two quotations I like:

Many literary critics seem to think that an hypothesis about obscure and remote questions of history can be refuted by a simple demand for the production of more evidence than in fact exists.—But the true test of an hypothesis, if it cannot be shewn to conflict with known truths, is the number of facts that it correlates, and explains.
—Francis MacDonald Cornford, The Origins of Attic Comedy (London: E. Arnold, 1914), 220. (quoted from my paper, "If Bacon is Shakespeare, What Questions Does That Answer?" this website, 11/27/2020.

And:

"The implication of a material fact is tantamount to a conclusion of law."

--J. H. Baker, ch 12, "Law Making," An Introduction to English Legal History, 4th ed. 202 (London: Butterworths, 1990), quoted in my book, Francis Bacon's Hidden Hand, 32).

(J. H. Baker, a British legal historian, is, however, on record, elsewhere, as a Stratfordian.)

A material fact is one essential to the case, necessary to determine the issue, without which it cannot be supported. Its proof would establish or refute one of essential elements of the case (Black's Law Dictionary). "Tantamount" means "just as good as, equivalent to, to amount to as much as."

Whether the statements of Heminge, Condell, and Jonson made in the First Folio can be taken at face value is a question of material fact. And so we try to show the evidence is not credible, that there are reasons for not taking it at face value.

I saw this on the internet: the truth welcomes questions. A lie does not like to be challenged (stated by Janice Dean, Instagram. I do not know anything more.).

Bacon: "A prudent question is, as it were, one half of wisdom." De Augmentis, Spedding 1:635.

 

 

 

Christie, you intrigue me. You have the mind of a lawyer, but the sensibilities of a poet - a special combination.

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Hi everyone,

Today, 16/09, I would like to share with you my thoughts and the fruit of my research on " Of Truth", the First Essay of Francis Bacon in the 3rd Edition fo his Essays published in 1625, two years after the First Folio, an essay which (in my view) is linked to the First Folio and Shakespeare Monument.

Initially, it was to be a video for the 400th Anniversary of the First Folio, but I finally choose another subject.

Here are some of the slides that I prepared for the video.

2023-09-16(4).png.0d6c90ee7e4052839de003491407f0e4.png

I already shared with you the importance, for me, of the word "wit" that is the 33rd word of Ben Jonson's Poem at the beginning of the First Folio, indicating that BACON'S WIT was in play.

BACON'S WIT is also in play in "Of Truth".

(OF TRUTH = 103 = SHAKESPEARE - Thank you Rob 😊)

2023-09-16(3).png.a89ad964fecf507608d777f23f8a59d2.png

Notice that right in the middle (Mediocria firma) of "Of Truth" 

we have  : F. BAC. WIT that stands for Francis BACon WIT

The  letters F (6) (2) (1) C (3) provide us with the four numbers that we find in the year of publication of the First Folio Folio (1623) and of the Second Folio (1632).

The first word in Capital "WHAT"(1) and the three words in Italic  "Pilate is Truth"(6,2,3)

confirm the importance of these 4 numbers/letters.

2023-09-16(5).png.f986bf27d3be391777db36349d659dc6.png

I also revealed in my first video (1623) the Triangle concealed by Francis Bacon in this page, with four "FBAC" and the word FREE of FREE-WILL right in the center.

With F (6) = B(2) + A (1) + C (3)

(The Unity and the Trinity)

2023-09-16(6).png.dbb819928af224a70f8d9cf72a970abd.png

2023-09-16(7).png.fefe6b94ef4181eaba82de9bc33be2da.png

We know  that Free = 33 = BACON

And here, Free is the 33rd word by counting from "Of Truth" (Skipping the number I. that is not a word)

It makes "will" the 34th word and Free-will = 33 + 34 = 67 = FRANCIS

At the time of my first video I stopped here, but there is much more ...

 

2023-09-16(8).png.8acfc98fa955eacb5b81e7c5e05d9ce6.png

image.png.4fca1b2f1e237f4a4e2d425aaa1f89c7.png

From the Triangle we can draw a Circle.

And this first Circle allows to draw a second Circle, creating a Vesica Piscis.

2023-09-16(10).png.4fa694b51cb2a9a4e1f12f3e2e812ede.png

And in the center of this Vesica Piscis appears a sentence that takes all its meaning :

"A BONDAGE TO FIX A WILL IN THINKING"

Notice the two points of intersection of the Circle "In" and "Pi" or "In Pi"

Interestingly, if we consider P as the greek letter Rho(R) , this gives us  INRI.

And here is what I found hidden vertically ...

2023-09-16(11).png.f44e3d8630e073dae307fe425900996d.png

THE AGED SWAN

To be continued ...

 

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The Triangle and the Circle are inscribed in a Square and I find that the figure is very similar to EMBLEMA XXI of ATALANTA FUGIENS published in 1617.

2023-09-16(12).png.e735812e608e0c47a1c30211e0264fa0.png

https://furnaceandfugue.org/atalanta-fugiens/emblem21.html

A circle for the man and wife provide,

Which make quadrangular with equal side,

That trigonal, resulting in a Sphere:

And then the blessed Stone to you will appear.

If this too high and too abstruse you find,

Geometry will soon inform your mind.

Still in my view, it could be a reference to the famous page 53 of COMEDIES ...

2023-09-16(22).png.a2ab00df5655eb871c66c1e7e997a00f.png

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/SLNSW_F1/71/?zoom=1275

To be continued ...

 

 

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From the previous Square, we can draw a "HOUSE".

The "House" contains 84 words (still skipping the I. that is a number).

For me, 84 is the simple cipher of ELIZABETH.

And I can link this "HOUSE" with the one that I discovered on page 84 of Histories and that represents the constellation CEPHEUS. ( see my first video -1623)

 

2023-09-16(15).png.f187b096565f62b2d2cc75364c17beca.png

Regarding the number 84 and this Essay, I let you appreciate the Armory on page 84 of "The Accedens of Armory" 😉 

image.png.1353154d133424e4e6b5a206139f06a7.png

https://archive.org/details/accedenceofarmor00legh/page/n183/mode/2up

But that's not all ! I think that this "HOUSE" is more than just a reference to CEPHEUS (74).

To understand, we have to take a look at the comments of Macrobus on "The Dream of Scipio" and more precisely the chapter talking about the septenary.

image.png.4f2c7775eda9d8016906da423dc1b758.png

https://archive.org/details/ARes37605/page/32/mode/2up

2023-09-16(14).png.02ed6a4961934bd3b43ac20e4a607ba4.png

On page 33, we learned the meaning of the Septenary as the union of the Quaternary and the Ternary.

2023-09-16(16).png.c36aa4694915df472e44c0eafc6af9cd.png

And on page 31, we learn that the number 7 represents Virginity and is associated with PALLAS/MINERVA.

2023-09-16(25).png.db2331c836af5b1d7b66716dc1d0ccec.png

I think that the use of this simple shape allowed Francis Bacon to make both a reference to his Muse Pallas Athena, to his mother the Virgin Queen and to his princely name WILLIAM TUDOR ( WILLIAM = TUDOR = 74 = CEPHEUS)

BUT THAT'S NOT ALL !

Did you noticed the two Angels on top, standing on one foot ?

I think that it is a reference of a specific passage of the First Folio that is on the 444th leaf of the First Folio

444 = 157 + 287 ( Thank you again to Rob/ Light of Truth)

And 444 is the gematria of MIKDASH the Hebrew for TEMPLE.

2023-09-16(17).png.efd036e6fea65f96b6c594b74756cbaa.png

This is on this leaf, on the following page, that can be found the famous reference to the ROSY-CROSS.

2023-09-16(18).png.bb49d35e7dd5dc599256edbdd44e6223.png

Notice that the triangle crosses the feet of the two Angels ... This is not by chance !

2023-09-16(19).png.cb5bb85e878c14a1adba007aeb7b7c3c.png

 

2023-09-16(20).png.9ba97aacca366ae04822b73277ccdf79.png

This is a reference to two stars of the constellation GEMINI : TEJAT AND ALMEISA.

The fact is that Petter Admundsen found a reference to these two stars hidden in the First Folio ...

... on page 169 of HISTORIES.

2023-09-16(21).png.325f3ad65f6f2a45fecf4c016ae7c853.png

To be continued ...

 

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TEJAT and ALMEISA that represent CASTOR and POLLUX are concealed on page 169.

Once again, I do not think that it is by chance.

Shakespeare's Sonnets were published in 1609.

The Wisdome of the Ancients by Francis Bacon was published in 1609.

16 and 9 are linked to the quartenary and the ternary.

Indeed : 16 = 4x4 and 9 = 3x3

And 16 and 9 remind us the 47th problem of Euclid.

Now, I let you appreciate the three pages 169 of the First Folio and their connection with the actual Shakespeare Monument ...

2023-09-16(28).png.b967a736c3b235292226058e56a2f941.png

 

And here is something that I shared with you few months ago.

2023-09-16(2).png.4c8441405cbbf0942bda7c5a2b8de8ad.png

Finally,

2023-09-16.png.b10a2edf363cee5b15aee5aff048f94d.png

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, A Phoenix said:

Hi Yann,

You truly are the wonder of the Baconian world.

Many thanks for your very kind words A Phoenix !🙏❤️

Here is a last thing that I forgot to bring up in my presentation.

Regarding the choice of vestment for Shakespeare in the actual Shakespeare Monument,

I learned that it was the vestment of a scholar from Oxford, and I know that for the Oxfordians this is a clue in favor of Edward de Vere the 17th Earl of Oxford.

But what if it was in fact, here again, a reference to one passage of the First Folio ?

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/SLNSW_F1/406/?zoom=1275

image.png.bc83711eed7a0363acecd3e970e9edac.png

 

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Hi Maestro,

Only you see and make these observations and connections.

However, when you point them out and make them manifest-we realise with astonishment that they have been hidden in plain sight for centuries, before you made them visible for the rest of us.

Much love and gratitude.

Phoenix.

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