In time truth reveals a secret

[peethagoras]

Here is the logo from New Atlantis title page.

 

I don't know if this has been picked up, before, but see below the foot of Time, the round item can also be seen

In the buttons of the Droushout 'portrait' (the one with the huge collar).

 

 

[peethagoras]

Just above R*S

 

[Eric Roberts]

3 hours ago, peethagoras said:

Here is the logo from New Atlantis title page.

 

I don't know if this has been picked up, before, but see below the foot of Time, the round item can also be seen

In the buttons of the Droushout 'portrait' (the one with the huge collar).

 

 

Well spotted. I suspect you are the first to notice the resemblance of this detail in the FF portrait and the frontispiece of New Atlantis. 

 

[peethagoras]

Yes Hi Eric. Pleased to correspond mate.

I also wonder about Bacon's (Rawley's?) choice of this New Atlantis emblem, and those letters R - S below the foot: is that a fancy X between them?

 

The reason I ask is because of the last five words in Bacon's tale: "The rest was not perfected":

 

                                                                                         R E S T ==> R  et  S ==>  R  S.

 

If that symbol between R and S is indeed an X, it might mean Rho eS  cross,  Rose Cross?

 

What do you think?

[peethagoras]

In passing, just having considered that row of buttons:  how many do you count? I make 13 going on 14 - rather like a certain 13 year old Iuliet Capulet

her name containing 13 letters. (6 and 7).

 

Not unlike Romeo Mountague, his contains 14.

 

 

[Eric Roberts]

4 hours ago, peethagoras said:

Yes Hi Eric. Pleased to correspond mate.

I also wonder about Bacon's (Rawley's?) choice of this New Atlantis emblem, and those letters R - S below the foot: is that a fancy X between them?

 

The reason I ask is because of the last five words in Bacon's tale: "The rest was not perfected":

 

                                                                                         R E S T ==> R  et  S ==>  R  S.

 

If that symbol between R and S is indeed an X, it might mean Rho eS  cross,  Rose Cross?

 

What do you think?

Hi P. Thanks for reply. Numbers and ciphers are a mystery to me, however you raise a challenging riddle: what is the significance of R S? The scroll you mentioned could be an elaborate X, or it could be a device to attract the eye to the two mysterious letters. Your solution is most ingenious, but I wonder if there is a more straight forward interpretation - any ideas anyone?

"The rest was not perfected": where does this come from? I checked "New Atlantis" which ends with a Latin invocation praising and glorifying God forever. 

https://archive.org/details/fnewatlantis00baco/page/n133/mode/2up

Your mention of "New Atlantis" started me off down a dark and dangerous path - cartography, which I know nothing about. "Atlantis" obviously derives from Plato's "Timaeus" (360 BC) "...in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together..." and ..." in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvellous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent..." But when was the name of Plato's allegorical island first applied to the ocean which separates Europe and Africa from the "New World"? 

In the early 17th Century, it seems - around the time of Francis Bacon. This map dating from 1644 names the northern half (above the Equator?) "Mare Atlanticum", while the southern ocean is called the Ethiopian Ocean ("Oceanus Aethiopicus"):

By the early 18th Century, the name "Atlantic" signified both the northern and southern oceans, with the Ethiopian Sea confined to Western Africa, as in this map from 1710:

In Tudor times it was simply called "Oceanus Occidentalis" or Western Ocean, as in this map from 1570:

It seems, then, that before Sir Francis Bacon wrote "The New Atlantis" the word "Atlantic" had not been applied to the ocean between Europe and America. Did his last visionary book somehow inspire the cartographers of the mid 16th-early 17th Centuries?

 

Edited January 16 by Eric Roberts

[Eric Roberts]

There are two references to the "Atlantic" in "The New Atlantis" on pages 8 and 9:

 

And for our own ships, they went sundry voyages, as well to your straits, which you call the Pillars of Hercules, as to other parts in Atlantic and Mediterrane Seas;

...yet so much is true, that the said country of Atlantis, as well that of Peru, then called Coya, as that of Mexico, then named Tyrambel, were mighty and proud kingdoms in arms, shipping and riches: so mighty, as at one time (or at least within the space of ten years) they both made two great expeditions; they of Tyrambel through the Atlantic to the Mediterrane Sea; and they of Coya through the South Sea upon this our island...

 

Note: I believe the "South Sea" was another name for the Ethiopian Ocean, before "Atlantic came to signify both North and South Oceans. In any case, Lord Bacon seems to have been at the cutting edge of history in his use of the word "Atlantic" which, in "The New Atlantis", seems to apply to the North Ocean.

[Kate]

Just a thought re your discussion above because, synchronistically I have been looking at this terrestrial globe on Sketchfab. https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/willem-janszoon-blaeu-terrestrial-globe-1606-c22ff82e3530492f91d66fcd0c24d568 It is from 1606 and is the counterpart to the 1602 celestial one that we have been discussing on another thread.

This is a great way to see what they knew about and the names they called places in that era. This one is interesting to look at the Oak Island area and America.

The Prime Meridian was once set through the Fortunate Isles - which have a huge backstory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortunate_Isles which is likely all tied in with Atlantis. They are in the Azores/Canary islands location. See Plutarch (46AD) in that link. Also if you look at the word Atlantis in ancient Greek it look like Atlantic  Ἀτλαντικός 

[Eric Roberts]

2 hours ago, Kate said:

Just a thought re your discussion above because, synchronistically I have been looking at this terrestrial globe on Sketchfab. https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/willem-janszoon-blaeu-terrestrial-globe-1606-c22ff82e3530492f91d66fcd0c24d568 It is from 1606 and is the counterpart to the 1602 celestial one that we have been discussing on another thread.

This is a great way to see what they knew about and the names they called places in that era. This one is interesting to look at the Oak Island area and America.

The Prime Meridian was once set through the Fortunate Isles - which have a huge backstory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortunate_Isles which is likely all tied in with Atlantis. They are in the Azores/Canary islands location. See Plutarch (46AD) in that link. Also if you look at the word Atlantis in ancient Greek it look like Atlantic  Ἀτλαντικός 

Thanks Kate. This shows that "Mare Atlanticum" was in use prior to New Atlantis.  

[Kate]

I keep coming across maps now! I was just watching a video that referenced the maps of Andrea Benincasa, so did a Google search. Lots of returns. Here’s one. The maps are from the 1400s and early 1500s. It’s all interesting to build up a picture of how the world was viewed in the 1500s and early 1600s. 

 

[peethagoras]

here's where to find it Eric: 1627, after Bacon's death. It was the first appearance in quarto size, and in English. His chaplain Rawley wrote "A Worke unfinished" on the front, and at the end of the tale "The rest was not perfected". I consider Rawley to have been a master at the art of ciphering, and carried out much of what is attributed to Bacon.

If you compare the large two letters under the hoof of Time, you see R S. The REST can be read in English and Latin thus: R et S, or, R S.

An even closer look shows that the R has in fact been altered to make P look like R. (Well I think so).

Many have commented on that "Bacon" emblem on the front, and many have been mistaken. I recall reading an essay on the subject, by someone who runs a Bacon charity or trust, at the time I passed him some important info on the emblem, such that the info would have destroyed his arguments, but although he acknowledged the info, the essay still remains unchanged.

 

[Eric Roberts]

On 1/16/2023 at 5:25 AM, peethagoras said:

Here is the logo from New Atlantis title page.

 

I don't know if this has been picked up, before, but see below the foot of Time, the round item can also be seen

In the buttons of the Droushout 'portrait' (the one with the huge collar).

 

 

Does anyone have any more thoughts on the R & S at the bottom of the engraving...?

[Allisnum2er]

17 hours ago, Eric Roberts said:

Does anyone have any more thoughts on the R & S at the bottom of the engraving...?

Hi Eric, I think that Peethagoras makes a valid point when he says that this is a P that looks like an R.

It gives  P & S with P + S = 15 +18 = 33 = BACON

And regarding the "&" , thanks to the synchronicities 😊, I think that it could be a "TURK'S HEAD" knot !!! 😉

https://forum.igkt.net//index.php?topic=4608.0

[Light-of-Truth]

On 1/25/2023 at 6:59 PM, Eric Roberts said:

Does anyone have any more thoughts on the R & S at the bottom of the engraving...?

I remember hearing a brief thought that we have a Gordian Knot as an O between the R and S and more beyond.

[Eric Roberts]

5 hours ago, Allisnum2er said:

Hi Eric, I think that Peethagoras makes a valid point when he says that this is a P that looks like an R.

It gives  P & S with P + S = 15 +18 = 33 = BACON

And regarding the "&" , thanks to the synchronicities 😊, I think that it could be a "TURK'S HEAD" knot !!! 😉

https://forum.igkt.net//index.php?topic=4608.0

Thanks Yann and Peethagoras.  

https://www.animatedknots.com/turks-head-knot

https://www.animatedknots.com/turks-head-knot

So far, we've got:

1.  R E S T ==> R  et  S ==>  R  S..           If that symbol between R and S is indeed an X, it might mean Rho eS  cross,  Rose Cross?

2.  An even closer look shows that the R has in fact been altered to make P look like R. (Well I think so).

3.  P & S with P + S = 15 +18 = 33 = BACON

 

IMHO: Why would anyone change the "P" into an "R"? Looks like an "R" to me that connects neatly with the knot. I'm still baffled by what R. S. could signify....?

 

 

[Eric Roberts]

1 hour ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I remember hearing a brief thought that we have a Gordian Knot as an O between the R and S and more beyond.

Unfortunately, the link won't open in Australia.

[peethagoras]

I thought it best to add this to what has already been said regarding the circular emblem from New Atlantis:

 

Firstly, the same inner scene was printed on the front title page of the first Geneva bible New Testament. (see GEN_1)

Secondly, I found an even earlier emblem as the frontispiece of a book, I forget the name, but will find it later. (see EARLIER_1)

You will see that it is identical to the one shown on New Atlantis, and predates it by many years, which means Bacon or Rawley had no hand in the design.

I think the emblem has certain moot points which Bacon/Rawley thought usable for their own ends. The main logo of Time revealing Truth no doubt being

the main thing. There is also an link between the figure of Time with his scythe, and the front title page of Billingsly's translation of Euclid. But that's another story.

I offer the letters R S from New Atlantis and the much earlier print, so a comparison might be made. Notice how deteriorated the Bacon version seems.

 

EARLIER_1 (in the book)

Source: Of prayer and meditation. Luis de Granada. Published 1596.

 

 

 

 

 

GEN_1 (Geneva New Testament title page)

 

From New Atlantis

 

EARLIER_1 (source forthcoming)

 

 

Edited January 28 by peethagoras
Addition of reference

[Light-of-Truth]

8 hours ago, Eric Roberts said:

Unfortunately, the link won't open in Australia.

This has basically the same content:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

 

[RoyalCraftiness]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:59 PM, Eric Roberts said:

Does anyone have any more thoughts on the R & S at the bottom of the engraving...?

The symbol in the middle is likely a Gordian knot. Think of it as the symbol for Omnia. The R "O" S are sandwiched in between a more concealed C and S suggestion.

You' ll also notice the large stylized R before it to the left for RC.  The circular depiction what can be though of as the face of a compass or of a clock. The placement of the Ts in the text around it is not arbitrary. Two of them are opposite and on either end of a line going through the center. We can detect that a preferential spacing of letters is shown. The "crossing" of the Tees has something to say in this image, in my opinion.

Edited February 25 by RoyalCraftiness

[Christie Waldman]

The Turk's head knot is placed on the "king's spoke" to mark the top center spoke of the helm of a boat, the "steering wheel," in case it might be relevant. How about a pun, "the King spoke"? It is interesting because the knot itself is like a circle that you cannot see a beginning or end to it, in how it was made. The person who made the one on my boyfriend's boat told him, "I would like to make the Turk's Head knot on your boat. Maybe, when you look at it, you will think of me." And he does. I suppose it looks like a little turban like a sheik might wear. It is made of strong strands of string, all interwoven, and may last the life of the boat, or life of the helm--so far nearly forty years. A bit of poetic extrapolation. Was any of that in the mind of the person who made the symbol on the page you showed us? Who knows, but It seems apt, if so. What else is the Turk's Head Knot used for, I wonder, besides marking the "King's Spoke" on the helm of a boat?

Edited June 18 by Christie Waldman
to develop the idea further

[Marvin Haines]

On 2/25/2023 at 3:27 AM, RoyalCraftiness said:

The symbol in the middle is likely a Gordian knot. Think of it as the symbol for Omnia. The R "O" S are sandwiched in between a more concealed C and S suggestion.

You' ll also notice the large stylized R before it to the left for RC.  The circular depiction what can be though of as the face of a compass or of a clock. The placement of the Ts in the text around it is not arbitrary. Two of them are opposite and on either end of a line going through the center. We can detect that a preferential spacing of letters is shown. The "crossing" of the Tees has something to say in this image, in my opinion.

Look closer: It's the "Double-A" headpiece!

[RoyalCraftiness]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:30 PM, Marvin Haines said:

Look closer: It's the "Double-A" headpiece!

I'm not seeing that suggestion in this case. You really have to think you are seeing it. RC is much more clearly given, though. What would AA signal to you here? Is it a link to Bacon or a link to Jewish cultural story? Are the two related?

[Kate]

Hi I've only just seen the rest of this thread because RC posted on it and so I've read back through it all.

Great spot Peethagoras re the button shape - identical to the one on the First Folio. That's a real find. Fascinating too that you found this image elsewhere.

My two-cents is that it is PS and made to look like an R to give it double meaning: probably the ROS for Rosicrucian but a guess as to the P is it could mean Rock.  Petros means rock or stone,  This ancient form of Petra and Peter is rooted in Greek and means "rock" or "stone.  hence why Petra in Jordan, a city carved out of rock, is called Petra. It's in the Bible.  Petra, petre, petrus = Peter

Rock is also a euphemism for the skeleton/bones. 

It's linked to the Papacy through the Primacy of Peter and seen in the Chi-Rho (Rho is the P, Chi is the X)

as for the S possibly something like Sancta Sanctorum, one or both?  It could be any number of Latin words beginning with S but the fact that the R o S makes Ros and the P is Rho which also makes Rho- s ( as mentioned earlier) is fascinating.

And this from Yann It gives  P & S with P + S = 15 +18 = 33 = BACON

Edited June 25 by Kate

[Kate]

 

is it this?

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:7_4_knots

[Kate]

If it is RS (or PS) it could be Rock Spiritual…

‘The house of the Rosicrucians is the House of the Holy Spirit. It is not a house made of stone, and again, a stone cut without hands. Nor is it a house built by magic or false alchemy, but rather it is a spiritual house..."the house of wisdom, built upon the `rational mount' or `rock spiritual'...The house constructed by the Brethren, then, is on the spiritual rock, and is built up of the mystical stones of wisdom’  - levity.com

Both the P and R has the dual meaning of Rock (as mentioned above) 

Edited June 29 by Kate