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Tin-Tin, T.T. , Thirty-Three


Allisnum2er

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Wonderful discovery Kate. The mystery person is revealing an awful lot in those two pages. The S.M. and the T.T. seen as if through glass (a telescope) are references to planets and the shapes they form suggestively when considered in astrological terms. Saturn and Mars are those planets (in opposition), and the T.T. that are two triangles overlapping are ornaments in the sky that marked a time of honor. Vulcan, not to be forgotten on account of having forged the plantation, is also a planet, theorized to be between the Sun and Mercury in those days. Alchemically and astrologically speaking, it is indistinguishable from the Sun. The Virginia colony was dear to this person and he saw it as a new shining beacon of light, or a new Sun not unlike the one someone had projected to be seen going from Heliopolis beyond the Pillars of Hercules to the New World.

A bit more about the two triangles. One of them is a triangle formed in the sky (or on a planisphere) by the position of Saturn, Mars and Vulcan that one specific time. The other is formed by the position of Saturn Mars and Venus at that same time. In fact, the two triangles are prominent in the sky when an individual named Francis Bacon was born in 1561.

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I've marked off S and M. Vulcan is between the Sun and Mercury, Venus that next placement to the right of it. If you project both triangle sides beyond their Vs they will meet at a point P on paper which I have placed. The newly created triangle SMP taken with a line from M to the position of the Moon is a mirror image of the Northern Triangle. This individual may have sensed that this asterism which contains the cross was particularly significant to his life. In the sky above his head in the zenith position was the constellation of Cygnus (C=100, Francis Bacon=100 in simple cipher). He may have seen that one as near and dear to him. Anyway , really nice find. The added fact that this is on page 27 and that we can retrieve Psalm 19 and see the similarities with this in terms of subject matter is wonderful. Here's a look at the sky chart for that night showing Cygnus in zenith.

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Elsewhere someone has posted asking about the New Atlantis illustration. I'm going to show how that relates to what the mystery man in Kate's pages is giving us.

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It was not easy to decipher this one, because there are many Tees to trip one's self up with. The scheme is deduced by removing the mythical depiction from the interior, defining the center of the circle as best as possible and studying the relation of every letter to all others. This yields the AB line which incorporates the zenith position in what I submit is the suggestion of a compass face (The compass rose to the cross written in red at the bottom). RC is thus given.

The next step is to complete to a TAU by joining AB to D above, producing a 40 degree angle at corner B. One can complete the triangle to A. From A it's noticeable that one can achieve a 60 degree angle at that corner by completing another triangle to C and back to A. This yields ACT (maybe act I in this colonization play?). The two triangles can then have their sides projected to a new point which, exactly like the Bacon natal chart star positions can, yield the 40, 60, 80 degree triangle which is the Northern (Summer) Triangle which we ought to attribute to Bacon as a major recurring theme in the empirical aspect of the story.

I drew a line from the T at the bottom left through to the projected corner position. This line once again involves the center position. It's a bit better than that because the X created is completely symmetrical. The internal angle is 70 and the external angle is 110 (often a suggestion to head to psalm 110 and its twin 111). The four letters involved in the X are T, T, A,C. We can think of T.T. as the Cygnus pointer. In that case we are left with AR(C). Summing the 4 letters in simple cipher is forty-two. That might explain why Lewis Carrol keeps going on about it in the Snark poem. I like it because it visually implicates 40 and 2 which are important concepts in the Holy Royal Arch symbolism.

The 60 degree corner at T is the Cross position in the sky, with Deneb in Cygnus (at 44.4N at the Mahone Bay ground point). The 80 degree corner going through VC is the ground point location of the Virginia Colony associated with Vega. The 40 degree corner at A is the constellation of Aquilla which contributes the very visible star Altair (AA).

The theme of the illustration is time. Time was, and is, essential to be able to pin down longitude. You simply cannot locate yourself on a spinning globe without being able to pin down time. As much as people love to think of Bacon toiling on other pursuits, this represents, to me at least, one of the major endeavors that Bacon was concerned with. Efforts to guide the colonizing efforts with Great Circle mapping and star ground positions was a huge consideration. The story of the Northern Triangle is one that Bacon must have seen as attached to his own appearance on this planet. He appears to have guided his various endeavors by it. That it also was the center of the Nova hubbub in Europe later played into further allegorizing also. It may have convinced Bacon that his role in all this was monumental--ordained from above.. 

About the idea of showing this sort of thing accompanied by a depicted myth, that's totally within Bacon's sphere of suggestion. He's doing exactly what Plato described was an effective way to gain knowledge, by associating a story that we can somehow feel our way around the archetypical message with AND associating to it an empirical facet. These are Plato's essential twin allegories put to use. The allegory of the divided line concerns the regularity and certainty of measure and proportion. The allegory of the cave is the one which leads to giving us archetypical suggestions which we can use feel our way through the proverbial cave with (to try and understand, or hint at,  what we cannot grasp). If it was just allegory incorporating myth we'd be quite lost in th many twists interpretation would allow.

The use of the same scheme by Lewis Carrol to guide the Bell man in his navigation based tale informs us that there' s nothing here that wasn't understood by some who shared in this story. There are many traces of this is Herge also. A literary circle seems to have existed where suspicion, and some degree of understanding, was shared. It has to have been, because it found its way to Nova Scotia to be written about there in an allegory by Thomas Haliburton. We can talk of a "secret", but is it really? I submit that there have always been individuals who understood aspects of this. Maybe not all aspects of this, but the core idea of the "guiding" scheme being incorporated into Shakespeare at the illustration level has traveled in time. It also suggests that men who were colonizers were also at least patrons of Shakespeare. 

I may share the Snark chart solution if that is at all interesting to anyone.

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2 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

I may share the Snark chart solution if that is at all interesting to anyone.

Count me in!

2 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

The two triangles can then have their sides projected to a new point which, exactly like the Bacon natal chart star positions can, yield the 40, 60, 80 degree triangle which is the Northern (Summer) Triangle which we ought to attribute to Bacon as a major recurring theme in the empirical aspect of the story.

I may sound ignorant, but trying to learn. Does this happen every Summer so I can look up and get in sync?

 

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15 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Count me in!

I may sound ignorant, but trying to learn. Does this happen every Summer so I can look up and get in sync?

 

No, the Summer triangle is always up there above your head fixed in the 40, 60, 80 degree configuration no matter where you are in the Northern hemisphere. Think of it this way: all stars have their positions fixed when we are dealing in the span of a human life.  We're the ones spinning under them. The planet spins around the tilt axis. Here's what that looks in the when we accelerate the rotation with still frame photography. You can see where Polaris is in that sky. All other stars move around it. In the minds of the ancients the North Star was the house of the Gods.

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How high the North Star appears to you in your sky is determined by your latitude. If you are near 45 degrees N then Polaris will be halfway between horizon and above head for you always. What you will see are constellations moving around that point which always appear to conserve their shape. At 44.51 N the constellation of Cygnus is circumpolar. You can see all it's path around the North star except for a very short period of time where it vanishes exactly at the Northern horizon. At it's highest point in the sky it will be directly above you. The Mahone Bay latitude looks like this when you consider only Deneb atop Cygnus.

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The Northern or Summer triangle is seen here at one instant in the day as it moves around in circular fashion. Deneb in Cygnus, Vega in Lyra and Altair in Aquila are the points of the triangle. All stars will therefore appear to move around one which is the North Star for a small tranche of an epoch. For us it is Polaris. It's not always been the North Star. The North star itself is in slow rotation around the precessionary axis. That cycle is long (25920 years). The entire sky rotates about 1 degree in 72 years, taking everything with it. Here's the cycle showing what star is the North Star at any given time.

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The precisonnary cycle is what changes where we see constellations. If we fix a time, say the Spring equinox, and we make an observation of what constellation we see rising in the very early morning sky that day we will see one of the zodiac constellations. From the first date a constellation is seen rising at the Spring Equinox until we see the next constellation there will be approximately 2000 years. These we know as the astrological ages.

The age of Aries ended approximately at the beginning of the common era. The phenomena was expected. We moved into the age of Pisces then. 2000 years prior to that was the end of the age of Taurus. Our cultural inheritance bears witness to the fact that there were in Ancient times bull cults in Egypt and the Mediterranean. This is part of the precessionary cult tradition. Each age is foretold. Each age has its prophet which appears and announces the age in the stories. When Aries ended the expectation was that there would be a prophet who would come as an exiting shepherd to announce the age of Pisces. This prophet we know as the Christos (the man of light who is symbolized by the Ichthys who is said to be a fisher of men.

Each astrological age has its corresponding philosophical character. The age of Pisces is an age of enlightenment where turning the other cheek and being generally stoic was what was understood, mainly because the stoics influenced the character of the age with their early writing. We are currently transitioning into the age of Aquarius. Oddly, we are the first culture in a very long time which doesn't have a tradition which expects a prophet to come and announce the new character of the age. We've lost that inheritance. Pan is dead for us. We don't celebrate the precession cycle as our ancestors did. In fact, most aren't even aware of it.

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41 minutes ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

Oddly, we are the first culture in a very long time which doesn't have a tradition which expects a prophet to come and announce the new character of the age. We've lost that inheritance. Pan is dead for us. We don't celebration the precession cycle as our ancestors did. In fact, most aren't even aware of it.

I see Bacon as that "new character." Are we early enough in this age for him to appear? Within a few years maybe? If we make it that far. 😉

Born of a Virgin and the Greatest literary and scientific mind we may have ever had.

🙂

 

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44 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

LOL, took me a moment to figure out why the image is upside down!!

Now I see it. 😉

I have a view to the North from by back porch. It's a little hazy in Florida, but my iPhone app sees through the haze.

Yes, I flipped that to show it turning counter clockwise for a presentation I have here. I quickly snatched it. If you were in Virginia the star circling Polaris and going in Zenith over your head once a  day would be Vega.  it would be Circumpolar in your sky. The path of Cygnus there would be clipped off.

I've set the coordinates to Orlando, Florida with this app I like Charts of the Night Sky - In-The-Sky.org You can set your local time and select animate with the double arrows and watch what your night sky in motion looks like. I suggest you rotate the cardinal points to have N above the display. It shows South by default. Just click it and drag it around.  Locate Polaris and see how the constellations go around it. You're going to notice how close Triangulum is to passing through the center (zenith above you once a day). Also notice that constellation never change their shape. We are rotating under them that are fixed.

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1 hour ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I see Bacon as that "new character." Are we early enough in this age for him to appear? Within a few years maybe? If we make it that far. 😉

Born of a Virgin and the Greatest literary and scientific mind we may have ever had.

🙂

 

Actually, he was something like Enoch, or he strived to be. He bore witness to he scientific age as a man returning from the past, and he saw what was ahead.  He sought a method to project himself into the the afterlife without dying, figuratively and even literally. We still have Bacon today, so he has never left us. He was very set in making certain the character of the age he was in would be scientific and empiric, as well as idealistic and realistic. Freedom and common access mattered to him.  As we move into Aquarius we need new narratives. They can be takes on the old ones, but they must address the concerns of our age. The commodity of water is likely going to be central to mankind in the age of Aquarius. It's character will likely be about environmental awareness as we contend with our appetite for energy and resources. Attempts have been made in late Pisces age to frame the age of Aquarius as the space age. We like to think we will be explorers of the great river that holds the water constellations. So, we strive to take Shakespeare with us with the USS Enterprise and all the other so influenced stories. Great fun to try and foresee an age. It takes men to make it happen. Some believe we are given these individuals and that they are guided by the stars/destiny.

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Setting the time helps too!

Love it! Been watching that my entire life through windows at night or camping. Seeing the "spin", so to speak. Easy to understand the concept, our Mother spins and the stars are up there as constants. The stars at night and with seasons change with time. Repeating cycles every year. Every 24 hours.

Never thought about Navigation, placement for structures, how designs should be made, etc. If everything is lined up and in sync, it will work.

Fascinating!

Bacon definitely left these lessons for us. I haven't yet been bored with the Sonnets mathematical design, but now have an entire new way to explore. Were the Sonnets, besides a way for Bacon to share his painful life, be a manuscript for Navigation?

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41 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Setting the time helps too!

Love it! Been watching that my entire life through windows at night or camping. Seeing the "spin", so to speak. Easy to understand the concept, our Mother spins and the stars are up there as constants. The stars at night and with seasons change with time. Repeating cycles every year. Every 24 hours.

Never thought about Navigation, placement for structures, how designs should be made, etc. If everything is lined up and in sync, it will work.

Fascinating!

Bacon definitely left these lessons for us. I haven't yet been bored with the Sonnets mathematical design, but now have an entire new way to explore. Were the Sonnets, besides a way for Bacon to share his painful life, be a manuscript for Navigation?

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Don't get ahead of yourself, lol.  The seasons are unrelated to the distant stars and entirely associated with our cycle around the nearest one, the Sun, on the ecliptic plane as it is called. Because our planet spins on a tilted axis. Our ecliptic motion presents all latitudes at different incoming angles to the Sunlight during the axial tilt rotation cycle of the day as the yearly cycle plays out. You do raise a very important point, though. The knowledge of four important cosmological cycles was understood a long time ago by the Greeks. Because they are very near circular and repetitive, each cycle can be represented as a gear with teeth representing time measurements. The synchronizing of multiple toothed gears with a gear train is what allowed for the making of the Antikythera mechanism we've all heard about. This was early knowledge of cycles only rediscovered by the masses at the dawn of the scientific age.

This brings us to the idea that all ages have their 2:1 internal character also. We speak of our own growing dark age (form the common era to a peak near the year 1000 and then to a clear shift back into a period of ascending positivism, Bacon was a the cusp of the height of the transition, and the Novas he saw as an omen to a beautiful 1000 years ahead before we reached back into a low in a future dark age. We' re at the top cycling back down in that way of thinking. We know he was thinking in these terms because the work Sylva Sylvarum is a work given in ten centuries, where a century is also to him a chapter in his book. A lot of other people thought the celestial clock had run out and that the end times were upon us. Kronos was beaconing, but not really.

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29 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Four important "cosmological cycles"?

What are they? 🙂

Not seasons, I assume.

I'm on my way to bed, work day tomorrow. And its late for me. And I am ahead of myself! Again! LOL

 

The ecliptic cycle around the Sun (year), the axial rotation of the planet (day) around the polar axis, the precession cycle around its axis (the astrological ages given by epochs) and the relative motion of the nearby bodies around the Sun (planets). Those are not fixed in our sky. The Greeks accounted for all of these.  You'll notice that these are all periodic, so they relate time. Combining observations of them can be used to pin down time. We relied on this until we developed the reliable and precise chronometer. In other words, we eventually bettered the Greeks..

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Wow, lots of information there RC. Think I’ll have to read it all again. Thanks for sharing and particularly the link to the app you use, I was wondering about that. 
 

Just one thing I semi-disagree with, or would politely query, what you wrote about water signs because Aquarius is the Water Bearer but is an air sign. We are widely thought to be entering an Age of Air.  ( That said with Saturn in the sign of Pisces from March for three years, issues around water and lack of it or contaminated water may loom large).
 

Water in the water bearer constellation of Aqu is thought to represent the pouring out from the heavens of a stream of consciousness. Consciousness obviously being something of the air/mental realms as it resides around us in Space but is processed by our mental faculties.
 

The other thing is, and this is something that has always bothered me, Bacon was born at a time when the old and new style calendars were still in transition. We know he was born on Jan 22 but putting that into apps we have to be sure that we have the right year and  calcs and also whether we are talking about constellations or signs of the tropical zodiac. 
B7898AF9-FBB3-4B0D-8FC8-48D1EF2C1694.jpeg.f62e7e27748dee7b2951767dad52c25d.jpeg
Don’t know where they got a time of 7.42am? 

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I didn’t mention calendar changes but to explain the difference about constellations and signs I made this video. 

https://youtu.be/U0YIynLpNPI

Has anyone ever looked into this old style/new style calendar dating and how it may affect research into all manner of things?

As far as the heavens are concerned though, would Bacon have been using tropical astrology or constellational ‘astrology’ I think the former as the sky has been divided into 12 equal sections of 30 degrees since antiquity. 
 

I ask this now, as if one were to pursue the theory of the geometry of the sonnets cover then the planets are going to stay in the same angular relationship, regardless of whether the backdrop is a 30° sign or a constellation BUT it affects anything where a constellation may be mentioned as, for example, Virgo is a massive constellation but it’s parameters have changed since the 1500s/1600s as the IAU introduced rectilinear system in the 1900s. 
 

All these things have to be factored in when trying to decipher what they were looking at. 
 

K

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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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4 hours ago, Kate said:

Wow, lots of information there RC. Think I’ll have to read it all again. Thanks for sharing and particularly the link to the app you use, I was wondering about that. 
 

Just one thing I semi-disagree with, or would politely query, what you wrote about water signs because Aquarius is the Water Bearer but is an air sign. We are widely thought to be entering an Age of Air.  ( That said with Saturn in the sign of Pisces from March for three years, issues around water and lack of it or contaminated water may loom large).
 

Water in the water bearer constellation of Aqu is thought to represent the pouring out from the heavens of a stream of consciousness. Consciousness obviously being something of the air/mental realms as it resides around us in Space but is processed by our mental faculties.
 

The other thing is, and this is something that has always bothered me, Bacon was born at a time when the old and new style calendars were still in transition. We know he was born on Jan 22 but putting that into apps we have to be sure that we have the right year and  calcs and also whether we are talking about constellations or signs of the tropical zodiac. 
B7898AF9-FBB3-4B0D-8FC8-48D1EF2C1694.jpeg.f62e7e27748dee7b2951767dad52c25d.jpeg
Don’t know where they got a time of 7.42am? 

157CCB93-2198-43E6-899E-7E3F239D3EE2.jpeg.96de1ec93167aba6943194bbf734deac.jpeg

I didn’t mention calendar changes but to explain the difference about constellations and signs I made this video. 

https://youtu.be/U0YIynLpNPI

Has anyone ever looked into this old style/new style calendar dating and how it may affect research into all manner of things?

As far as the heavens are concerned though, would Bacon have been using tropical astrology or constellational ‘astrology’ I think the former as the sky has been divided into 12 equal sections of 30 degrees since antiquity. 
 

I ask this now, as if one were to pursue the theory of the geometry of the sonnets cover then the planets are going to stay in the same angular relationship, regardless of whether the backdrop is a 30° sign or a constellation BUT it affects anything where a constellation may be mentioned as, for example, Virgo is a massive constellation but it’s parameters have changed since the 1500s/1600s as the IAU introduced rectilinear system in the 1900s. 
 

All these things have to be factored in when trying to decipher what they were looking at. 
 

K

On the last part it matters only greatly if you are A-doing telemetry (for example sending a probe to a far of place in the future) of B=if you want super precise astrological chart data because you think that matters to your interpretation. 

On the matter of the calendar it doesn't matter to us, because if you specify the visible planet positions, and if you enter the two different dates for the calendars you could chose from, either one will return the same planisphere because the two dates point to the same star layout. We can convert seamlessly. Whatever was seen in the sky above where Bacon was born in 1561 is irrelevant to what we call it. In fact, all we do know about Bacon is his alleged place of birth and date. I don't know where they get the time of birth from, but let us be clear about something--the picture we get as an image for a planisphere or an astrological chart including planets and moons changes during the day. 

If I want to test whether the Sonnets title page is relaying the position of stars/planets at a certain time on a certain date (irrespective of calendar) that can be verified. Alternatively, we can also set just the date + location and put the sky in motion on that date and see at what time (if any) corresponds to what we are presented with. In my case the latter is what I have done. I satisfied myself that at a certain time on that date I could come very close to generating most of the points (periods) on the Sonnet title page + one star alignment apparently of interest. We can ask: who collected this star and planet position data? Well, it could have been anyone with eyes because we are talking about a few visible planets and the moon and Sun. It need not be, though. Someone like Bacon could have worked back later positions to earlier ones at his birth.  What gets shown in the title page is a time which corresponds with Cygnus in zenith on that day. 

Regarding the relative movement of stars over 400 years, if you want to account for that you can. When I was looking at what the Mahone Bay ground point may have been in 1600 I recalculated star declination and right ascension values in a converter app. in which you specify the time desired and the current time and it tells you what the shift is in both. You can also do the exercise for the Summer triangle positions and reevaluate the angles. Some stars travel towards you and hardly shift at all, some might shift a bit depending on distances. You can account for shifting, but in my opinion you don't really have to. The reason is that this sort of precision is not needed. It's too fine a difference, and that gets drowned out by the fact maps were not that precise yet. If you have excellent star data and are applying it to poor maps you still don't know exactly what Bacon or anyone was considering. On some scale you can appreciate things, but the exercise is not helped by us solving anything precisely. Bacon wasn't using precise anything. Celestial body positions were related by sextant and that was applied to imperfect maps. There are simple ways to improve the visual relaying of points. You could specify a further map alignment, which I submit is something Bacon did. I have always told myself that Bacon would have appreciated Mahone Bay as a location, as opposed to a precise point there. We would then have to turn to the historical record to see if in fact there was anywhere in Mahone Bay a spot where colonials of ca 1600 had been. Same can be said for Conception Bay Newfoundland and that Bay in Virginia.  What all this boils down to is that we're essentially drawing thicker lines on the old globe when we are considering old great circles. Today we could do so much better.

I confess to having just assumed Aquarius was a water constellation when I wrote that blurb about heading into space. Now that you mention it, he is depicted as pouring the water out a vessel. I'm not an astrologer and the only time I use it is to try and get a sense for what someone who was may have thought about it. I have looked more into what Claudius Ptolemy would have to say about it than anyone today. I do like to know what the Greeks thought about the constellations. For example Triangulum to them carried a significance that is particular to that culture and maybe a few others. That is was associated with the Delta region in Egypt is something we can appreciate.

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I'm going to go ahead and show how one can "solve" Lewis Carrol's famous empty Snark chart from his nonsensical poem "The Hunting of the Snark"  by way of considering only a single period, points of intersection and by using one famous theorem of circular geometry.

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Essentially we are given nothing here, but the story alleges that this chart is as clear as day and an excellent navigational tool. The first step is to frame the image with circular and diagonal armatures.

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The next step is to consider the lone period below after "Chart". We can draw a line vertically though it and define a point C3 of intersection on the lower leg of the diagonal. This will yield a point that we can draw a circle though from the point at the intersection of the main diagonals C1. We can also draw circle around that circle incorporating the lower point C3 as a center. From those three circles we can project to this:

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The intersection of the larger circles gives points a and b. a and C3 can also give a line through them intersecting at d. a through C1 gives p1. P1 through C3 gives p2. With this in hand we can deduce by Thales' theorem that the tringles (a, p1,p2), (a,p1,b), (a,p1,d) and (a,p1,e) are straight angled. This, if you recall is very similar to Greene's Sonnets circle through the periods which yield 4 triangles. I drew parallels through b and d to make this look even more like the Sonnets page. The final step is to draw a horizontal across the center point C1. This produces a point of intersection at A (see below). At this point it is actually useful to read the text around the rectangle. If one goes to zenith from A, and from p1 to longitude the point V appears. What we can then discover is that we are dealing with internal angles of 40,60 and 80. The triangle is thus a representation of the Summer Triangle containing Deneb in Cygnus, Altair in Aquila and Vega in Lyra. a-p1 becomes the stem of the Northern Cross and the approximation for the divine pointer which I call Kepler's alignment of the Nova positions of 1573, 1600 and 1604. I have also included here an syllogism which allows one to see how the internal angles can be seen as ratios which can be interpreted as latitude and longitude. 44.4 +66.6=111. This is the magic constant for the 6x6 magic square which Agrippa tells us is for the Sun. It is also a cue to the twin psalms of 110 and 111 which we also get from the New Atlantis cover illustration. The Snark chart can thus be seen to sending us to Mahone Bay, NS. An interpretation of SNARK can then be thought of as NS-ARK, the Nova Scotia ARK. That this may have been suggested by Carroll is fine, because he was a fan of Thomas Chandler Haliburton's work. TCH wrote a funny allegory about all this in 1849. It would have been fine for Carroll to pick up on it and use it for his nonsense story. He incorporates a beaver in his and that may be to send you towards Canada looking, as it is our emblem. This is, I submit, the chart that guided the Bell man. Its the same one that was guiding Bacon. All of Carrol's crew have B names. I encourage a reading of the poem to see how close this is getting to evoking the mystery in Shakespeare on page forty-two. This seems to suggest that literary men have appreciated the story and that one of the retellings was later adapted by Herge with his version of the TT mystery.

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h

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Hi RC

Thanks for all that. I’m not trying to pour cold water on your theory, I’m just one of those people for whom it has to make sense, so I’m trying to sort out exactly what you are doing. One of the reasons I did that last post is because I noticed an anomaly in the positions you are using. You are using an astrology chart , presumably from Astrodienst but the data you have does not match. 
 

I’ve added it to your original slide. See the yellowy box below your data. The Sun by my calcs is at 12 Aqu, not 2° And Mars at 6Sag not 0 Sag.

FC55E418-77FD-4D12-A661-E30C1B2E38C3.jpeg.d1ee95a1861e22ec17e5c1af16a8874f.jpeg

 

So I’ve read what you said and it appears you are saying that given the vast distances, the configuration would still be more or less the same for a few days to the naked eye at a certain time (yes), but you mention an angle to the moon in your earlie post which will be very different as it moves so fast. This is why I’m struggling with it. Also you appear to be saying they wouldn’t have been so precise in those days but we know they did plot precise positions as the sonnet cover was 1609 and here is one of Lily’s horoscopes. His own for 1601 or did you perhaps mean terrestrial maps were not precise?

1E9773E0-2CC4-4A4D-BEF9-02923AC51B71.jpeg.ef8b5cbe7b580ff0a961979339fe061f.jpeg

 

So, anyway, I think you are saying the sonnets cover could contain a map of the pattern of the planisphere depicting FB’s birthday 🥳 with Cygnus at the zenith I’m just questioning the data and Julian versus Gregorian as you have the Sun at 2 degrees.

Anyway, well done with all the detailed research and the knowledge you bring to the Forum. You seem pretty certain about your find and as I say I’m not challenging you, rather querying so I can see if I can get onboard with it. Maybe I’ve completely misunderstood. Thanks again.

 

Edited by Kate
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 "For nothing is born without unity or without the point." amazon.com/dp/B0CLDKDPY8

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1 hour ago, Kate said:

Hi RC

Thanks for all that. I’m not trying to pour cold water on your theory, I’m just one of those people for whom it has to make sense, so I’m trying to sort out exactly what you are doing. One of the reasons I did that last post is because I noticed an anomaly in the positions you are using. You are using an astrology chart , presumably from Astrodienst but the data you have does not match. 
 

I’ve added it to your original slide. See the yellowy box below your data. The Sun by my calcs is at 12 Aqu, not 2° And Mars at 0 Sag not 6 Sag.

FC55E418-77FD-4D12-A661-E30C1B2E38C3.jpeg.d1ee95a1861e22ec17e5c1af16a8874f.jpeg

 

So I’ve read what you said and it appears you are saying that given the vast distances, the configuration would still be more or less the same for a few days to the naked eye at a certain time (yes), but you mention an angle to the moon in your earlie post which will be very different as it moves so fast. This is why I’m struggling with it. Also you appear to be saying they wouldn’t have been so precise in those days but we know they did plot precise positions as the sonnet cover was 1609 and here is one of Lily’s horoscopes. His own for 1601 or did you perhaps mean terrestrial maps were not precise?

1E9773E0-2CC4-4A4D-BEF9-02923AC51B71.jpeg.ef8b5cbe7b580ff0a961979339fe061f.jpeg

 

So, anyway, I think you are saying the sonnets cover could contain a map of the pattern of the planisphere depicting FB’s birthday 🥳 with Cygnus at the zenith I’m just questioning the data and Julian versus Gregorian as you have the Sun at 2 degrees.

Anyway, well done with all the detailed research and the knowledge you bring to the Forum. You seem pretty certain about your find and as I say I’m not challenging you, rather querying so I can see if I can get onboard with it. Maybe I’ve completely misunderstood. Thanks again.

 

I remember only going to an ephemeris site and drawing the body positions from that calculator. The visual of the chart you are looking at is one I roughly drew from that. In looking around I noticed quite a few charts for Bacon in a few places. I never took any of them as THE chart. Instead I generated the data and looked at it. I have not questioned to what degree of precision I am dealing with, mainly because all I am interested in doing is checking for a convincing suggestion, not a mathematical proof. On paper, when we do geometry we are helped by being precise.

The position of the moon moves greatly in the day, as does that of the Sun. We can't know what we are looking at with the Sonnets page, therefore we are stuck comparing to what the sky would look like and seeing what corresponds to what. What helps us is that we are only dealing with 7 bodies. 4 of them do not move appreciably in a day. We can differentiate the Sun and the moon position in the daily cycle. So, in fact what I am doing s more deducing what we might be presented with, not proving anything with mathematical certainty. The sky chart you will consider for that day in 1561 will tell you if the Sonnets page is "reasonable" in relating celestial body positions.

The data collected in the day will be reflecting the error is the measurement. There are errors in all sighting of astronomical bodies and there are further difficulties in relating those to Ground Positions because of maps. This is why I am much more inclined to say that Bacon was dealing in generally larger positions than pin point ones. Where I think we see an attempt at precision is when the Ground Point is fudged to symbolize something else precisely, for example, preferring that the GP be the lat. and long. summing to some highly important number. What we end up with is a rough guess of position further refined by the certainty of arithmetic.

When I show a cartoonish chart with stem of the Northern Triangle pointing towards the moon, that is merely a suggestion that I have seen close enough to make.  The two triangles we are talking about are going to be figuratively showing us the Northern Triangle. They aren't actually giving us the positions of the stars involved. There's a syllogism involved when I project through the points of the two triangles. In astronomical terms that means nothing. It is just a very suggestive way to invoke it. Bacon could have reacted to its discovery by thinking: wow look at that, isn't that a wonderful coincidence to exploit.  What geometry comes out of our on-paper representation is merely trying to find a symbolic link. It's why I think precision isn't that important. Whether the angles are off by a degree or two, you can still just as easily imply that the thing is visually pleasing. Positions of Saturn, Mars and Venus are rock solid. It may be that Bacon pranked us a bit and presented the Sun and Mercury where his syllogism would work best, but he did not have to. By invoking Vulcan, a hypothetical planet between the Sun and Mercury, we are free to place it where we want to make the triangle suggestion work as well as we want. 

When I look at the New Atlantis title page there we can see how that was achieved. On the left we can see how the lettering around the circle is arbitrarily spaced. That diagonal through center I show was engineered, and it was done to implicate a zenith position. We end up finding the same two triangle set-up which is in the Sonnets, but instead of having to rely on Vulcan's degree of incertitude the lettering layout can be made to be  better. There is still room for error in anyone's choosing of points, but the general suggestion is the same. In the Snark chart, because we are dealing with pure geometry and only the setting of the initial period (easily done). it's going to yield something very close to 40,60,80.

Keep in mind that this must then be cross referenced to the Great Circle suggestion we initially are dealing with. The symbolism would have to hold on many levels as opposed to being seen in just one place. The academic thing to do is to require precision, but that is just a knee jerk reaction. I don't think it helps us at all. We are dealing with things that are just vaguely true, like saying the Earth is round, the the Ecliptic motion is circular of that the precession is also circular. There are levels of abstraction that allow us to function and we are fine with these.

I am always suspicious when we are given positions of bodies that aren't all visible at the same time of day. That means they aren't observed, but deduced. If one wanted to interpret a chart for astronomical reasons it would be best to not put too much emphasis on fast moving bodies unless you had very precise time data. This would imply that astrology is as prone to being approximate as any of this is. When we are trying to coax out more information than what we have the right to we are cheating. That is why all of science deals in margins or error and the world isn't today seen as a precise giant clockwork mechanism--it's a complex dynamic system of variables that looks, on some scale, like it is functioning like a regular clock. There aren't any circles in the world. The circle is an abstraction.  This why you can't find pi the sky either. Pi is related to an abstraction and that is what makes it irrational and with no end. In the world all things are messy and have ends. The world will end, but not before our Sun goes to Nova and lays waste to our ideas of perpetual cycles.

Edited by RoyalCraftiness
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2 hours ago, RoyalCraftiness said:

There are levels of abstraction that allow us to function and we are fine with these.

I was fascinated by Greene's work with the Sonnets. Brilliant, in fact. But like anagrams, or a game of Scrabble, more than one solution is possible. Greene in his works that followed left me thinking he was not as brilliant as I first thought. LOL

There is a simpler concept for one of his triangles. Kate, you have seen me mention it before. I don't think you bought into it, but I'm sharing again. 😉

In the dedication poem, if we center and arrange the spots based on some simple geometry I come up with this pattern:

image-2.jpg.06b4fdcbdc5090a448427edaeab2a0d7.jpg

Nothing fancy, just a grid and dots. Maybe more typography than geometry, but both using Photoshop.

image-3.jpg.3b4bf2de2fbfafe7de3487c8e1de475a.jpg

Just simple stuff, not to be miscalled simplicity.

But I can take one of the Greene triangles and it fits.

image-1.jpg.498a00e1ca6dbd65d53b59c721c0c05c.jpg

image-6.jpg.7b83c60eb94971111b19b245bafff9e5.jpg

Maybe they (Bacon's friends and team) were hinting at how we arrange the mysterious stops in the poem?

image-4.jpg.f8ebcc3048c6e7849183be965c6f512e.jpg

Is there an astronomical/astrological design incorporated as well? Maybe. You two are way beyond my knowledge at this point. It is interesting and I'm reading and learning. Yet I think we also need to let compounds dissolve and not miss the obvious.

But that's just me. Please keep up the dialog and I'll do my best to follow and enjoy even if I get lost! 😉

image-5.jpg.d53838cd833a9c3ab2056df5a806c021.jpg

 

stardesign.gif.0203f6788588588298ae677d52d43a2d.gif

http://www.light-of-truth.com/SonnetsDedication.mp4

RoyalArchMasonJewel1.jpg.2a6737ccf9194e43e02aa929f3c9bc2f.jpg

Edited by Light-of-Truth

T A A A A A A A A A A A T
157     www.Light-of-Truth.com     287
<-- 1 8 8 1 1
O 1 1 8 8 1 -->

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1 hour ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I was fascinated by Greene's work with the Sonnets. Brilliant, in fact. But like anagrams, or a game of Scrabble, more than one solution is possible. Greene in his works that followed left me thinking he was not as brilliant as I first thought. LOL

There is a simpler concept for one of his triangles. Kate, you have seen me mention it before. I don't think you bought into it, but I'm sharing again. 😉

In the dedication poem, if we center and arrange the spots based on some simple geometry I come up with this pattern:

image-2.jpg.06b4fdcbdc5090a448427edaeab2a0d7.jpg

Nothing fancy, just a grid and dots. Maybe more typography than geometry, but both using Photoshop.

image-3.jpg.3b4bf2de2fbfafe7de3487c8e1de475a.jpg

Just simple stuff, not to be miscalled simplicity.

But I can take one of the Greene triangles and it fits.

image-1.jpg.498a00e1ca6dbd65d53b59c721c0c05c.jpg

image-6.jpg.7b83c60eb94971111b19b245bafff9e5.jpg

Maybe they (Bacon's friends and team) were hinting at how we arrange the mysterious stops in the poem?

image-4.jpg.f8ebcc3048c6e7849183be965c6f512e.jpg

Is there an astronomical/astrological design incorporated as well? Maybe. You two are way beyond my knowledge at this point. It is interesting and I'm reading and learning. Yet I think we also need to let compounds dissolve and not miss the obvious.

But that's just me. Please keep up the dialog and I'll do my best to follow and enjoy even if I get lost! 😉

image-5.jpg.d53838cd833a9c3ab2056df5a806c021.jpg

 

stardesign.gif.0203f6788588588298ae677d52d43a2d.gif

http://www.light-of-truth.com/SonnetsDedication.mp4

RoyalArchMasonJewel1.jpg.2a6737ccf9194e43e02aa929f3c9bc2f.jpg

Be careful with that. A circle is a unit length of radius. This means that a flower of life shape must have intersections that will appear on a regular grid made up from a square of unit length side. The Greene demos are all using the properties of circles and are not spectacular or specific to that circle. He goes on to demonstrate a link to pi, phi, e , tau, 2:1 and such. Those are there in all circles and the demonstration of it is in trigonometry.

I have a slide here that I use to visually show how things relate.  Here it is:

spacer.png

Pi, Phi, e and 2:1 are all related. Give me a circle and I can find you some ratios of triangle sides in it that will represent these. What Greene shows as near miraculous or incredibly precise actually has to be there. No one designed a circle, put it in the Sonnets, to have these "rare" properties displayed. The 4 triangles have a common side. This makes trigonometric ratios useful to perform "magic".  There's some geometric proof behind that.

The flower of life will intersect points in any regular grid that is scaled properly. What is most useful of Greene is the initial suggestion of a circle. That leads to a wealth of possibilities about what that circle might be trying to be. The mention of "At London", to me, always suggested that we were told exactly where the circle is rooted (specifically to London). That makes sense for a star chart suggestion. When you are given a location and star positions you have being given a time. The mystery revolves around time. The Novas are said to have appeared at a special time.

 

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13 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

I was fascinated by Greene's work with the Sonnets. Brilliant, in fact. But like anagrams, or a game of Scrabble, more than one solution is possible. Greene in his works that followed left me thinking he was not as brilliant as I first thought. LOL

There is a simpler concept for one of his triangles. Kate, you have seen me mention it before. I don't think you bought into it, but I'm sharing again. 😉

In the dedication poem, if we center and arrange the spots based on some simple geometry I come up with this pattern:

image-2.jpg.06b4fdcbdc5090a448427edaeab2a0d7.jpg

Nothing fancy, just a grid and dots. Maybe more typography than geometry, but both using Photoshop.

image-3.jpg.3b4bf2de2fbfafe7de3487c8e1de475a.jpg

Just simple stuff, not to be miscalled simplicity.

But I can take one of the Greene triangles and it fits.

image-1.jpg.498a00e1ca6dbd65d53b59c721c0c05c.jpg

image-6.jpg.7b83c60eb94971111b19b245bafff9e5.jpg

Maybe they (Bacon's friends and team) were hinting at how we arrange the mysterious stops in the poem?

image-4.jpg.f8ebcc3048c6e7849183be965c6f512e.jpg

Is there an astronomical/astrological design incorporated as well? Maybe. You two are way beyond my knowledge at this point. It is interesting and I'm reading and learning. Yet I think we also need to let compounds dissolve and not miss the obvious.

But that's just me. Please keep up the dialog and I'll do my best to follow and enjoy even if I get lost! 😉

image-5.jpg.d53838cd833a9c3ab2056df5a806c021.jpg

 

stardesign.gif.0203f6788588588298ae677d52d43a2d.gif

http://www.light-of-truth.com/SonnetsDedication.mp4

RoyalArchMasonJewel1.jpg.2a6737ccf9194e43e02aa929f3c9bc2f.jpg

Re your dots etc., shown in the images in the attached post, did you have a good look through the book by Agrippa that I posted recently, Rob?

https://wellcomecollection.org/works/zgvs7b2r/items?canvas=9
 

719F7D14-8854-452E-9279-EFD4A5CA5BE5.jpeg.2635ba9a63ec1bf09bd44773366e8c4c.jpeg

A9D3E5AB-E96D-4DE1-B1D0-F5DAC7BA6F44.jpeg.7c2a75ec5197db017e584438b5243d37.jpeg
Maybe this is what sparked you off down this route originally, I don’t know but just happened to think of you when scrolling through.

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This probably deserves a topic of its own but the Snark chart scheme is something we can infer may have been detected somewhere else. The most natural place I have seen to look is to the KJV since it's title page layout is framed by a rectangle, and we do have one prominent period(dot) given at the center of the large G (The Sonnet do also tell us "by G"). The drawing of the 3 circles which produces the 4 triangles does end up producing noticeable coincidental features. The parallels drawn from the 2 triangles give us the equator of this circle and a line which underlines "That bright occidental star".  It also puts a point atop the cartouche which has St John on the opposite page. St John, if you recall, is part of the solution to Herge's TT riddle which safeguards the inheritance.

spacer.png

That "bright Occidental Star" is equated here to Elizabeth. We can start to see how Cygnus which is positionally implicated in the appearance of the Nova of 1600 gets tied to the idea of prophesizing the death of the Queen. When it finally faded away in 1603 Elizabeth went into the stars. We know from the calendar puzzle in Psalm 46 that the  rise of King James will be tied to Kepler's observation of the new star in 1604 in Serpens Ophiuchus.

You probably know where I am going next with this if you've been following the method I've shown elsewhere. We can project to a point beyond the Two Triangles and complete for a new symbolic triangle.T

spacer.png

The new triangle has angles of approximately 44.5 degrees and 67 degrees. That's eerily evocative of a pair of coordinates (44.4N and 66.6W of Paris) which I've shown are attributable to the Mahone Bay ground point. This would explain how some may have latched onto this scheme of "ciphering".

Why this would point to this location is not something I am interested in speculating about. It does however raise the question of why a British ship would have sailed to Mahone Bay ca. 1830 and retrieved something from an Island (Hobson's Nose) very near the GP in question. We know a variation of that story as the Oak Island mystery, but it has always been my contention that the mystery in Mahone Bay was only ever attributed to that Island at the time of the survey of 1762 by Freemasons who were aware of the Mahone Bay legend, but of no real specifics. It is entirely possible that the said men did deposit some symbolic thing at OI (a book and some bones, perhaps) employing a Euclidian scheme. The book may have been this book, or it could have been a copy of Anderson's charges from 1723, because we know Erasmus James Philips (died in 1760) had copies of it. He left one signed copy of it to his lodge in NS (King Solomon lodge #54). That copy later burned.  Oak Island gets understood better by considering the deeds of two men:  Erasmus Philips and Charles Morris. Hobson's Nose is a mystery that has been lost to time. Something was retrieved there, and no one has ever spoken of it.

The reference to this HN account is found in Desbrisay's "History of the County of Lunenburg". History of the county of Lunenburg : DesBrisay, Mather B. (Mather Byles), 1828-1896 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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