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Kate
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That got me to thinking, I have never tried a 33-wide grid on the Sonnets, have you? It might make sense as the TT points to 33

Kate,

No that wasn't how I was doing grids and things, mostly the Caesar Cipher back then. But I did study and kind of duplicated what was in the old Baconiana.

The TT is 33, but also the two Pillars that all of pass beyond when we begin a journey, or go from one level to the next. Are there three levels? Thus 111 (three Pillars) after 11 (two Pillars)?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Rob, Yann, AP and those who are posting here regularly know all about what I'm about to write, but for anyone reading who is interested in cryptography, this is what I meant by grids of different sizes/widths.  In the top left example of the image, you can see the grid is as wide as the, then-in-use, alphabet of 24 letters. You read the dots from the grid and the dots translate in that example to a secret message:  'Beware of this bearer who is sent as a spy over you'.

You could use a 33-wide one though and use run on letters or numbers.

It is possible - but only possible, no one is sure - that the dots in the dedication at the front of the Sonnets do signal a cryptogram and relate to a grid system. If we use the same 24 alphabet grid it doesn't immediately appear to yield anything, but in the images are a couple of ways (there are many more, such as using overlays or wheels), that it may yield a hidden message.

To my mind, it is more likely that if there is a code it is simple and hidden in plain sight. This is because there is no reason to be hiding a code if it's going to be too difficult to decipher.

It was only for matters of state secrets or in times of war, that it was of the utmost importance that no one without a 'key' could decipher the secret message within very ordinary looking missives sent by spies. Here, with plays and poems they knew no one would be looking for code for many years, if not decades to come, and if they did most wouldn't know what to look for as so few were educated. So this was more for 'those with the eyes to see' (initiates) and perhaps even a bit of fun for the compilers to leave this trail, and their TT (33) mark and wisdom school signatures and symbols.

Meanwhile, those writing epitaphs, epigrams and elegies had to be more cautious as they didn't want to give the game away at a time when the entire works may have been pulled from circulation, burned or ordered not to be acted out in playhouses. Additionally, they or some of the "Shakespeare/Essex Circle" of good pens or their families who were still living may have been punished. It was only in the early 1800s when things were slightly less oppressive that people first started openly suggesting that the works were not by Shakespeare and Bacon's name was able to be mentioned, without just alluding to it or having to use myth, acrostics and other code.

1791881355_Cipher4.png.e2fc3c9780e820bb4727a90eacab6819.png

219960018_Cipher5.png.2eb9912309d9109c92aaa090cb421d40.png

I've just found this website http://www.twinkletoesengineering.info/shakespeare_cryptograms.htm#Early Shakespeare decoding was nonsense that I'm about to read through. He points out there are 144 letters in the dedication. I'm not sure if he goes on to mention this but that's an interesting number - for many reasons.

Also, turning to Sonnet 144 , the first word, (if you have seen my recent June 2022 video) is two and has the TTT.

More to explore!

K

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Hi

So I've been composing part two of my video.

While doing so, I was thinking again about how the De Vere crowd are intent on saying that the dedication in the Sonnets is split into a 6,2,4, which they say confirms Edward (6) de(2) Vere(4). It is absolutely obvious to anyone who looks that, if it is split at all, it is actually in a 5, 3, 4 pattern. I think I mentioned up above that this could be - bit of a wild stab - but could be a reference to the 345 Pythagorean Triangle, which is so important in Freemasonry, under the 47th Problem (Masons call it a problem, most people know it as a proposition). It's representative of Osiris, Isis and Horus, as well as many other things.

 

Anyway I was reading up about 287 Fra Rosi Crosse ciphers and Peter Dawkins suddenly mentioned a Pythagorean one. I had never heard of this. I immediately thought, maybe that is the cipher key for the Sonnets dedication. So I found a site which does the conversion, but I wasn't sure if it was the same one as Bacon used. I asked and it turns out it is (thanks Yann and Rob).

So this is what you get  https://www.dcode.fr/pythagorean-numerology

Just wondering if any of this turns on a lightbulb for any of you cipher experts?

Seems the Total is 732? The problem if whether to use the u or v as each has a different value.

1020382211_PythagoreanCipher.png.a0a8617cea7ae983e1e78089c9984100.png

854194582_PythagoreanCipher2.png.de3628a5a52e9888ecb5233942d6d594.png

2013630591_PythagoreanCipher3.png.2f7c2778c6ff908e9c1bba39c3ade351.png

While I am here, I know that Wriothesley has been seen to be in these letters and much is made of it, however it struck me that wrote this must also be. Is Verulam in here too? I think it is! 

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17 minutes ago, Kate said:

Seems the Total is 732? The problem if whether to use the u or v as each has a different value.

If you want to use the "U" (Pythagorean 3) instead of "V" (Pythagorean 4) with three instances, take 732 - 3 and the total is 729.

🙂

I'd use the letters as printed myself, even though using a 26 letter code.

By the way:

BYOVREVERLIVINGPOETWISHETHTHEWELLWISHINGADVENTVRERINSETTINGFORTH

Adds up to 345 in Pythagorean cipher.

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Kate, if you want to experiment with different grids in a quick method, you can use a text editor and choose Courier font which keeps the letters aligned vertically. Then you just adjust the width of the editor window to take a look at see if anything catches your eye. If you find something then you work it with any other tool you like. Below is breaking the dedication at 33 letters:

I know you've mentioned that a cipher should be described somewhere and there should be a key, or some historical path to follow. Maybe the Sonnet Dedication poem is not so much a cipher as a puzzle with nothing to go by to start. Perhaps it is to figure out from scratch. Possible?

 

 

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Thanks Rob, that's so useful. I've just been writing them out. I've tried a width of 20 and 9 and 33 and God knows how many others, but I love doing it. For me it's like Wordle or Sudoku. Keeps my grey matter ticking over. I also started trying to work backwards assuming that Verulam is a word but so far nothing is popping up, vertically diagonally or in reverse but I'll keep playing with it. Thanks again for your help/advice.

The examples below are obviously non-workable and with one the lines are not in order, but I've added my rough working as sometimes others can see a pattern and then work out a width for the grid needed

611043629_PythagoreanCipher4.png.10c5e3032a69e5096d9884fed917ce0e.png

I also just posted this on Twitter. I've had it in my photos for a long time and unfortunately I can't recall where I got it from and a reverse search shows nothing, but will readily give it an attribution if I ever find it.

1270381800_cipher6.jpg.ce969155faed21b9565aae6b0a67a916.jpg 

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Binary code! As a computer person I see binary. 1's and 0's, or down to machine level, On's and Off's.

Bold and regular font is binary just as different type-styles are. I've heard ideas that letters that are the same height are A's and those that reach up or hang down are B's. And any binary system can be flipped if needed.

As far as a binary cipher code our imagination is the limit. I don't have the eyesight or patience to look for type changes. But I have spent time looking for binary ciphers with letters, such as the W's and T's in the Sonnets which are the most common letters to start lines. B's and A's are also unusually common, the next two most common letters if I recall. So to begin the lines of the Sonnets the most used letters are W, T, B, A. That's curious to me. 😉

Odd and even are also a binary possibility. A word with a letter count that is even might be an A, with odd letters counts they could be a B.

Keep up your work, Kate! I spent a very long time playing with the Sonnets in 1999 and 2000. You are "winding a spring", and one day it will release. For me it was the moment I gave up and was ready to try something new, the First Folio. And that has happened to me more than once in life! Finding Love is like that sometimes. 🙂

 

 

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11 hours ago, Kate said:

While I am here, I know that Wriothesley has been seen to be in these letters and much is made of it, however it struck me that wrote this must also be. Is Verulam in here too? I think it is! 

Hi Kate, here is what I found by using your ingenious idea ! 😊

WTVERULAM.png.aa0d0e5c857aed376b4c419d73e6887a.png

Edited by Allisnum2er
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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Kate, if you want to experiment with different grids in a quick method, you can use a text editor and choose Courier font which keeps the letters aligned vertically. Then you just adjust the width of the editor window to take a look at see if anything catches your eye. If you find something then you work it with any other tool you like. Below is breaking the dedication at 33 letters:

 

I know you've mentioned that a cipher should be described somewhere and there should be a key, or some historical path to follow. Maybe the Sonnet Dedication poem is not so much a cipher as a puzzle with nothing to go by to start. Perhaps it is to figure out from scratch. Possible?

 

 

I’m finding this use of Notepad fabulous, you’ve saved me hours of work. Thank you again, Rob. (Ps is there any tool anywhere to search letter strings in the First Folio?). 

 

Yann, it’s amazing what you’ve found, my only concern, as always, is it reads as an anagram so it severely lessens the statistical odds of those words being deliberately placed when there are so many letters.
 

As I’ve been playing around with the words on notepad this morning I’ve come across tens, if not hundreds of words and phrases, but nothing in a pattern that I can see. I’ve tried with and without dots and dashes too.

I was thinking, with your keen eye and skill do you ever look for Latin phrases? The choice of letters in the dedication appears to lend itself to some Latin. 
 

I found a great Latin phrase related to Bacon that comes from a quote by Lucretius 

exortus uti æthereus Sol . 

17B19357-BC85-4140-85CA-EF6C9052C46F.png.57fc4b1204c6f6476ecb8f4998d85f8b.png
 

A5F96CDD-F84B-4926-905E-2518713C2777.jpeg.0245418f2060dedbd20d5186ca8caa8a.jpeg

Thanks again

K

Edited by Kate
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Kate, I only share ideas and interesting results ! 🙂 

About looking for Latin phrases, I found some of them in the First Folio, but I am not versed  in Latin. ( The fact is that I am not versed enough in English for my liking but I am doing my best 😊)

Regarding "VERULAM" there is an easier anagram that looks like an invitation to move the word "BY" from its place ...

1068293294_2022-06-19(6).png.a49b13f1e6015878b83dd8d15ad04a5b.png

And interestingly enough if we do so, the anagram of I.H.S appears right in the center !

Iesus Hominis Salvator -

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3 hours ago, Kate said:

(Ps is there any tool anywhere to search letter strings in the First Folio?). 

Rhymezone is a tool I use often and it is highly valuable:

https://www.rhymezone.com/shakespeare/

That one belongs in all of our toolkits. 😉

EDIT:

Let me add a link to the original text of the plays:

https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Foyer/plays/

Roll over the Texts link to see each play.

image.png.8035aa0bb9eed4a47fb35489fae9bc7c.png

I copy/paste text pages or sometimes the entire Scene into MS Word where I can do word and letter counts. But always look at the facsimile as well for visual clues that we'd miss with just the text.

I'm working on something for later today from the Sonnets using Word and the facsimile. So you may see an example. 😉

 

 

Edited by Light-of-Truth
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7 hours ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Yann's English is better than mine and I am a one language guy! LOL

 

Thank you to both of you ! By chance , I have always my best friends " Google translate" and "Linguee", near me. And fortunately, I do not have to talk ! It would be a different issue ! 😄

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Posted (edited)

Just taken my first good look at the Shakespeare400 website. I have to say, I love the design.

Anyway, in the 'Folio-phernalia' section it shows a poem by Keats from 1816. It was found in his personal First Folio copy.

 

Keats.png.fb26f869bbe6d011db4417f372c7371a.png

21762337_Keats2.png.10336231e3e97c61ada81bb0c524ecd3.png

Bearing in mind my now boring caveat that I'm reluctant to find references to Bacon where they may only exist by chance, the first thing I noticed is that there's an anagram of Bacon in his first lines. Also the line Chief Poet caught my eye, so I looked up Albion (old fashioned name  for England) and found this...

The names of the first three of Albion's sons  in Albion by Blake are Hand, Hyle and Coban. Coban is an anagram of Bacon. See http://ramhornd.blogspot.com/2018/03/sons-of-albion-5.html

Anyone know anything much about Keats perhaps being a Baconian or Rosicrucian? Maybe it's just a coincidence but  WT is in there too.

Editing to say,  it turns out he was. Bingo!

1120809066_KeatsRosicrucian.png.f9ed02bf232f2cf2c1d9675105233981.png

 

Edited by Kate
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Here's the link to the above https://folio400.com/phernalia/new-phoenix-wings/

I'm also intrigued by the words Keats wrote to Benjamin Haydon, that you can see on that page:

"I remember your saying that you had notions of a good Genius presiding over you. I have of late had the same thought, for things which I do half at Random are afterwards confirmed by my judgment in a dozen features of Propriety. Is it too daring to fancy Shakspeare this Presider?"

Who is the Good Genius? 

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You are right to say Kate that it might well be chance or coincidence, but given the context, references and allusions (Shakespeare, King Lear, chief poet, Queen [Elizabeth?], and the lute (when FB was a young boy?), Albion, and of course, the Phoenix, once in every four or five hundred years, and in his case for all time), I think there is a strong probability bordering on a tolerable certainy that it was very deliberate.  

Great work Kate! 👍♥️

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Thanks AP I've just edited my post while you were posting that. I did a search and the top three returns mention the belief he was a  part of the Rosicrucian/Freemasonic brotherhood.  It was found in a specific place in the folio I wonder if that has relevance.

Also, while I'm here has Ben Jonson's book been discussed/dissected by you here on the forum? The Workes of Benjamin Jonson

https://archive.org/details/workesofbeniamin00jons/page/n3/mode/2up

Many thanks x

454734636_TheWorkesofBenjaminJonson.png.fa4be2e93aefb28fcf25201bde507291.png

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The association of Keats with Lord Bacon's sublime Rosicrucian-Freemasonry Brotherhood only serves to strengthen the probability that the 'Bacon' anagram was deliberate.

As far as I am aware Kate the 1616 edition of Ben Jonson's Works (generally regarded as the first example of a Folio edition of works of poetry and drama) has not been examined and discussed on B'Hive.

However, as you know Kate, I have put up a few posts on the close relationship between FB and BJ primarily relating to the fact that BJ was living with FB at Gorhambury when the 1623 Shakespeare First Folio was making its way through the Jaggard press and that BJ was privy to the secret FB was Shakespeare.   

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You know who that GOOD GENIUS is-the demi-God who set in motion the Universal Reformation of the Whole World, the Father of Modern Science and the Modern world, the greatest poet and dramatist since the world was the world; in short, the greatest man who ever passed through this our little world. 

Edited by A Phoenix
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