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Shakespeare’s Monument


Kate

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 Based on the stats, there are about 100 lurkers for every one of us who are active. Google is indexing pages fairly quick as well.

To share a thought, often we put up images that contain valuable text content and keywords that Google does not index since they are in images. Google certainly can "read" text in images, but it doesn't appear in searches. When possible, if something of importance is posted in an image, adding some actual text with some content or keywords will expand our reach. Even just titles or a brief description would be valuable.

No pressure on anyone, but something to keep in mind to attract more attention.

🙂

 

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  • 11 months later...

I watched. Great find, Yann!
 

Few points. At 43.07 it shows this slide

 

IMG_3470.jpeg.c6146a77b5a535bedade6378fa63df56.jpegand he says ‘There is also this, in Shakespeare’s handwriting.’

There is no evidence this was Shakespeare’s handwriting. Also I was wondering what this is on the right because it’s different to the one showing the original writing,

IMG_3472.jpeg.9fd82ea9f93b0d7866b1a6270c75a96f.jpegin fact this looks like someone has copied or made notes of the original, which is here:

IMG_3467.jpeg.d993dc93c4efa20fb1116ef77b989150.jpeg

This is where it gets interesting because I had a sudden ‘pattern recognition moment’. This writing looks almost identical, imo, to the Northumberland Manuscript!

IMG_3469.jpeg.e72de21b907f58cb86cbeff948e4c341.jpegYou are going to have to zoom in or go and look yourself, but I think it may be the same hand - in which case Bacon! 
IMG_3476.jpeg.0015893dac929342ebfb73fba6abeada.jpeg

The spacing. The size. The pressure. The neatness of the motto and the neatness of certain lines in here. The flourishes. What do you think?!  Where can we find the two highest resolution copies to better compare and contrast? 

There is also misinformation around about the sequence of events that led to the granting of Arms and the amount of applications. I’ve got lots of links but this one is interesting. 
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/shakespeare-part-1-the-grants-of-arms-to-shakespeares-father/

IMG_3479.jpeg.3e2b0c235d6e6cdf859aaa11dc863263.jpeg

And here too https://www.whitelionsociety.org.uk/news/11-a-grant-of-arms

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2 hours ago, Kate said:

There is no evidence this was Shakespeare’s handwriting. Also I was wondering what this is on the right because it’s different to the one showing the original writing,

IMG_3472.jpeg.9fd82ea9f93b0d7866b1a6270c75a96f.jpeg

Hi Kate,

I totally agree with you. I had watched only 30 min of the video when I shared the link with you, so I had not watched this passage nor learned about his point of view about the Authorship Question yet. And this is the first time that I see this image of shakespeare's coat of arms with "shakespeare's handwriting" that indeed looks like a copy of the original.

In regards to the fact that the "original" handwriting looks like the one on the Northumberland Manuscript (aka the Bacon-Shakespeare Manuscript - Thanks to the incredible work of A Phoenix on the subject) it is, for me, difficult to say.

But in my view, the handwriting on the sketch of Shakespeare's Coat of Arms is not the one of Francis Bacon.

As an example, take a look at the difference between the letter "m" in "my" on the left and the letter "m" in the word "may" written by Bacon ...

2023-05-28.png.636672cafa07220517deba3bddb42c28.png

I also agree with you about the misinformation around about the sequence of events that led to the granting of Arms.

Thank you for the great links ! 🙏 ❤️

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19 minutes ago, Allisnum2er said:

In regards to the fact that the "original" handwriting looks like the one on the Northumberland Manuscript (aka the Bacon-Shakespeare Manuscript - Thanks to the incredible work of A Phoenix on the subject) it is, for me, difficult to say.

But in my view, the handwriting on the sketch of Shakespeare's Coat of Arms is not the one of Francis Bacon.

As an example, take a look at the difference between the letter "m" in "my" on the left and the letter "m" in the word "may" written by Bacon ...

Here's another sample of bacon's handwriting that matches the "m":

https://www.art.com/products/p49094484527-sa-i11177027/sir-francis-bacon-letter-from-francis-bacon-to-sir-john-puckering-28th-july-1595-artist-sir-francis-bacon.htm

image.png.2d1be509826c902bd9c86fad29fa7a36.png

His Elizabethan secretary style handwriting varies slightly at times. I know when I used to write my handwriting would change over a few hours. At first it would be much neater, then later on it got kind of messy. It was always poor, but it would change.

 

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Yes, despite what Yann is pointing out, which is indeed very, very convincing, I’m still not sure. I found this which allows a super high resolution and zoom in 

https://archive.org/details/cu31924029601378
 

and there are a number of M’s without flourish and one or two with, and I agree that writing can change. Even in here if you look for the repetition of the words ‘ for my lord of…’ half way down, directly underneath each other,  the words lord are identical but for my and of are obviously by the same hand, but if we were shown them in separate books we’d say, no not close enough! 

So the jury is still out. I think they look like a very, very, very similar hand.
 

IMG_3485.png.bc14636a1f4f0e263d7cb3d334a473c0.png
 

IMG_3490.jpeg.9db33a83964e9c3c1661bd1cfac87b7b.jpeg

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I also noticed the second type of "m" by Bacon in the first letter that I shared with you.

But, contrarly to the letter "m" of Bacon that begins almost on the line, the letter "m" of the handwriting on the left, begins under the line. 

image.png.83d4197cb54ea9ac7fe165258b412638.png

I admit that the small double "l" is intriguing.

Here is something else of interest ! 😉 

image.png.791b8b9b75c9b1ac520036dd54dfc290.png

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Hi Yann

Oh my gosh, we are so tantalisingly close. Great spot with the F.  We need a professional graphologist! 
Kate

PS Yes, those were your red arrows on the left showing the Ms. Mine on the right showing the L’s.

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Hi Kate,

I think that thanks to the link you provided to a high resolution image of the Northumberland Manuscript, I've just made a discovery !!!

https://archive.org/details/cu31924029601378/page/n7/mode/2up

image.png.786f59a26017b13e9ecfc04982f5663a.png

This is the first" By" of "By Mr Frauncis" right after his four praises.

Notice the B that looks like 2 3 and that could be a way to hide two 3 or 33 (BACON simple cipher).

Here is another one ...

image.png.b442c9695b089a444f000c95ddc7a5c3.png

And here is a letter written in 1619 by Francis Bacon to Lord Zouch.

https://inlibris.com/item/bn49034/

Notice the word "Bill" on the 10th line !!!

"23ill"

By the way , in this letter, the stylised "c" at the beginning of the words "content", "concerning" or "customes"

are also very similar to the ones in the Northumberland Manuscript !

image.png.06256554908bca3f5fa37d1871ef5c92.png

Asmund and Cornelia

image.png.d1abc1cea1e546431ecc106b683315a1.png

Leycesters Common Whealth

 

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42 minutes ago, Allisnum2er said:

By the way , in this letter, the stylised "c" at the beginning of the words "content", "concerning" or "customes"

are also very similar to the ones in the Northumberland Manuscript !

If I remember correctly, which would need to be validated, one of Bacon's handwriting characteristics was these angled lines:

image.png.ed9105582454886e88345033f52fa5f4.png

 

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Here is a question:

I've read that Bacon had his favorite "pens" who would even write some of his letters. I think, anyway. I do have dreams in my sleep that seem real.

So, if we were to stumble on the priceless handwriting manuscripts of the First Folio with more handwritten notes, edits, and lines through some phrases, are we looking for Bacon's handwriting exclusively?

No, not at all.

I suspect Bacon's personal handwriting would be a lot of the notes on the sides of the pages. Perhaps a part of the written content may be his as well, maybe. But I visualize his "good pens" who practice as much as possible to perfect the contemporary Secretary script exactly did most of the work. A true forensic handwriting expert could even tell nuances from master to master. But do we even know who Bacon had in his circle to do the handwriting??

Who were Bacon's "Good Pens"?

EDIT:

Bacon: I was serious about the angles being 84%. Your style is great, but I can't live with 80% angles. Understand?

Good Pen ??: Sorry Master, it looked good to me, but I did not use the tools the good Dr provided. It won't happen again!

 

 

 

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Stupid me. I should have dug more deeply and looked for the full page. It was easily locatable on Folger. It’s not FB it’s the hand of William Dethick.

https://shakespearedocumented.folger.edu/resource/document/grant-arms-john-shakespeare-draft-1

IMG_3495.jpeg.5357c637716f2745f4c5736a22b8fa00.jpeg

However, what this thread has done is caused Yann to find that absolutely indisputable use of the 23 at start of the word Bill and the c’s, in the Northumberland Manuscript - of which, as you say, A Phoenix wrote an amazing paper on Academia.edu - which exactly match Bacon’s hand on the signed document at inlibris below. 

 

IMG_3497.jpeg.7b6db32c36e6e0b8855b44f04f88e1e7.jpeg

 

IMG_3498.jpeg.97330d17e65538f74c3b75fe726d7786.jpeg

 

Regarding the middle pillar - yes it was mentioned by M. Osborne I think, in the talk for the SRIA that you posted? Not the 171 though. 

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1 hour ago, Kate said:

Regarding the middle pillar - yes it was mentioned by M. Osborne I think, in the talk for the SRIA that you posted? Not the 171 though. 

Hi Kate, and thank you.

Indeed, M Osborne talks about it and he also mentions the 7 roses in his video 🙂.

My question was more about the interesting link that can be made with the Kay ciphers of FRANCIS and BACON.

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22 hours ago, Kate said:

Stupid me. I should have dug more deeply and looked for the full page. It was easily locatable on Folger. It’s not FB it’s the hand of William Dethick.

https://shakespearedocumented.folger.edu/resource/document/grant-arms-john-shakespeare-draft-1

IMG_3495.jpeg.5357c637716f2745f4c5736a22b8fa00.jpeg

However, what this thread has done is caused Yann to find that absolutely indisputable use of the 23 at start of the word Bill and the c’s, in the Northumberland Manuscript - of which, as you say, A Phoenix wrote an amazing paper on Academia.edu - which exactly match Bacon’s hand on the signed document at inlibris below. 

 

IMG_3497.jpeg.7b6db32c36e6e0b8855b44f04f88e1e7.jpeg

 

IMG_3498.jpeg.97330d17e65538f74c3b75fe726d7786.jpeg

 

Regarding the middle pillar - yes it was mentioned by M. Osborne I think, in the talk for the SRIA that you posted? Not the 171 though. 

Oh gosh, now I stumbled across this re DethickIMG_3508.jpeg.6e652d4e1c7fae2db55e0384f74fc55e.jpegThe plot thickens! 

While here, and talking about handwriting, it seems a good time to remind everyone of a page from AP’s paper on the Tapster Manuscript 

IMG_3504.jpeg.f57422b917e79f8bc16b40b16e0fd976.jpeg

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Seeing as this thread topic is about monuments, here is a picture I just put together. I found a really interesting book about Shakespeare's Town dated 1896, so then juxtaposed the Dugdale drawing and the present day monument with a picture from the book. Here it is, with some interesting old pictures. Note the change in the angle of the quill and the writing end of it no longer points to the same thing. Note also the hour-glass to torch, and the other changes - besides the downright obvious one!

Shakespeare's Town

 

708307873_TheevolutionofthestratfordMonument-TheSecretWorkofanAgewithattribution.png.4df27d15c3ce9548a7246d03b2c3f72c.png

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My tweet about handwriting has had 9000 + views, signalling that this is the type of info people are interested in. It also shows how on Twitter it’s all about exponential growth - if people RT it gets seen by all their followers and they RT and so it grows. Very happy that it’s turning some new people on to SirBacon.org.

Re the above triple pic, I suddenly realised how, because there was once no window behind the monument, it is likely those windows will be of particular significance. Has anyone written about them. Are they the Seven Ages of Man windows? 
 

Also, like most in here I know the story about how the Dugdale sketch of 1624 was turned into an engraving by Holler and the illustration printed in 1656, and then the monument was updated (in the 1700s?)but what is the best source of reliable info as to why it looks so different? Thanks 🙏 

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