Mathematical Treasures - Geometry

[Kate]

So excited to share this link 

https://www.maa.org/press/periodicals/convergence/index-to-mathematical-treasures

Scroll down the list to find some of the most amazing books, including many from contemporaries of FB and those who influenced him and Dee.

[Light-of-Truth]

There is a "mathematical" book that demonstrated one of the, if not the first example, of a Kaye cipher where B=27, C=28, C=29 so on. It was published in the late 1500's. It was not called "Kaye" cipher, but it is the basis of what we use today. Numbers 25 and 26 were characters, not letters. But A was 27, and then on to I/J as 35.

I thought I came across it with a Peter Dawkins reference, but maybe it was Alfred Dodd. I cannot find it now and have looked so many times.

One day in 2004 I went to the USF library in Tampa and looked it up on microfiche, scanned all the good pages, posted on a Yahoo Baconian forum that is now lost. My Yahoo email has been gone for well over ten years. I guess I never saved the images to my PC, at the time I thought Yahoo was permanent storage. UGH

But Yahoo got hacked, and they wiped out millions of user's data, like nothing. "Sorry, reset your password..."

The reason why I searched it was Strats were saying the Kaye cipher did not exist until the 1900's and I wanted to prove them wrong.

What was that book???

 

 

 

[A Phoenix]

Hi Rob, this is very strange synchronicity. I was working on this yesterday and will get back to you later with the details.

[A Phoenix]

In 1916 the brothers Frank and Parker Woodward were responsible for the privately circulated and anonymously issued Secret Shakespearean Seals Revelations of Rosicrucian Arcana. Discoveries in the Shakespeare Plays, Sonnets, and Works, Printed Circa 1586-1740, Of “Secreti Sigilli,” Concealed Author’s Marks and Signs (1916) and seven years later Francis Bacon’s Cipher Signatures (1923).

 In the 1916 volume the Woodwards introduced the discovery of the kay cipher, which they attribute to one of their Baconian colleagues William E. Clifton.¹ In The Advancement of Learning Bacon observes that ‘The kindes of CYPHARS, (besides the SIMPLE CYPHARS with Changes, and intermixtures of NVLLES, and NONSIGNIFICANTS) are many, according to the Nature or Rule of the infoulding: WHEELE-CYPHARS, KAY-CYPHARS, DOVBLES, &c.,’.² The Kay cipher is presented by Woodward as follows.

 

                                                   KAY CIPHER

 

       A   B    C    D    E   F    G   H    I-J   K   L   M   N    O   P   Q   R     S   T   U-V   W   X    Y   Z

      27  28  29  30  31 32  33 34   35  10  11 12   13  14  15  16  17  18  19   20    21  22  23  24

The explanation of the Kay Cipher is provided by the Woodwards in Secret Shakespearean Seals:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

[The kaye cipher] takes its name from the fact that in the alphabet of that period the letter K was the tenth letter and accordingly the first letter, which was by its position represented by two figures (10)… It will be noticed that the letter A ought correctly to have been number 25 and B 26. But as this method was a secret one, early discovery was avoided by slipping two numbers and giving A the figure value of 27.

The enumeration adopted in The Repertoire of Records, 1631 (see hereafter), formed the most valuable clue to the discovery of the Kaye method.

In the 1670-71 edition of the Resuscitatio, a further clue was obtained. A few words upon one of the early subject pages of the Resuscitatio were found to have been carefully covered over with a strip of paper. Held to the light, it disclosed an apparently innocent message about a Dr. A. and a section 27.

Experiment with a number of prominent names of the period convinced the group of us who took part in it that we had arrived at a correct solution. Pondering over the Red Cross Knight of the Faerie Queene and the references to the secret Fraternity of the Rosy Cross in the Anatomy of Melancholy, 1621 and in Ben Jonson's Masques of The Fortunate Isles and News From the New World, we concluded that the 287 Seal placed in position of prominence by so many important writers of books probably referred to membership of that secret society.

 We found that counting by the Kaye method the words “Fra Rosicrosse” or “Fra Rosiecross,” totalled 287.

 

                         F     r    a     R    o    s      i     c     r     o    s     s     e

                         32  17  27   17   14  18   35   29  17  14   18  1 8  31  = 287.³

 

From Francis Bacon’s Secret Signatures there follows below the full arguments and evidence credited to Clifton for the assigning of the numerical values for the kay cipher:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

It is to a Baconian friend, Mr. W. E. Clifton, that we owe the discovery of the “Kay” Cipher. Studying the letters and figures of the “Simple” Cipher, he noticed that letter “K” was the first letter requiring two figures (10), as its numerical equivalent. He saw the difficulty of using such a Cipher for continuous figures, as some letters would require one figure, and others two, to express them; for instance:-

 

                           1223 might mean - A,B,B,C. or 12, 23 meaning- MY.

He thought it almost certain, that double numbers would be used for the first nine letters of the Alphabet, “K” being the tenth. The difficulty was to find out, what figure was used for letter “A.” Research, and the lucky chance, of having certain old books in his possession, gave him the answer.

The first of these books was:-

 

                                                                               THE REPERTORIE OF RECORDS, 1631.                                                                                                                                                                                                

This is a strange and rare book. It is anonymous, and is dedicated “To the unknowne Patron.” It has been assigned to the authorship of T. Powell.

Mr. Clifton’s attention was attracted, by the special mention in this book, on Page 31, of two places closely associated with Francis Bacon.

 

“a box contayning a booke of the enormities of Cardinall Woolsey and his surrender of Yorke House, and Saint Albans, with other lands.”

 

On page 33, commences a curious lettering of the chests, in which records had been placed. These chests, it says, were placed in the third Treasurie, being the old Chapiter House of the Abbey of Westminster, &c.

The first two chests are marked, respectively, A and B. The list continues on page 85, with “C,” and the enumeration proceeds to “Z,” which is said to indicate the 24th chest. The 25th chest is marked “&” and the 26th with “E.”.

Curiously, the 27th chest is marked with a small “a” and then the alphabet is followed again. This marking suggested to Mr. Clifton, that here was a direction for the Kay Cipher, and that letter “A” was to be number 27.

The other book, which helped in the solution of this Cipher, and confirmed the above was:-

 

                                                                                                            RESUSCITATIO.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

Or, bringing into Publick Light several Pieces of the Works, of Francis Bacon, &c.

  

It is by William Rawley, his Lordships First and Last Chaplain, and was published in 1671. Rawley died in 1667. This was the third edition.

On page 17 of this work was a foot-note, carefully covered over with a strip of paper. This strip, I have loosened and turned back, before making the facsimile: to enable it to be read. It states:-

                                                                                                                                                                                           

“The Reader is desired to take notice of a Letter to Doctor A., that should not have been printed, &c.”

 

But no letter to a Doctor A. had been printed, and therefore the foot-note was unnecessary. Then it goes on:-

                                                                                                                                                                                            

“The true Copy, Corrected by Dr. Rawley cometh in the twenty-seventh Folio following &c.”

 

But it does not; neither statements are correct. Why was the footnote put there, if unnecessary, and the strip put over it? Possibly it was an intelligent anticipation of what happened. Mr. Clifton held it up to the light, and again found a suggestion that “A” was “27.” On this he acted, and completed what is called the “Kay” Cipher.

These are the two Ciphers, [i.e. simple and kay] upon which the later discoveries are based. Next, the method of their use must be explained, for Bacon did not employ the method of Selenus, nor did he simply transpose Letters into Numbers, or Numbers into Letters.

Bacon, as far as is known at present, used these two Ciphers for signatures only, and his method of use, was so subtle and yet so simple, that its presence has not been suspected. Instead of turning the Letters of a name into figures, as for instance:-

 

BACON into 2, 1, 3, 14, 13, he took the sum of these numbers, to represent his name:- 

                                                     B-  2

                                                     A-  1

                                                     C-  3

                                                     O- 14

                                                     N- 13 

                                                          33

“33” then represents “Bacon.” Baconians have known this for a long time, and knew that this number was arrived at in the manner shewn; the figure values being taken from those of the “Simple” Cipher.

It may be asked how they knew this?: It is because several books, in the production of which, it is thought Bacon had some share: have this page 33, marked in some special manner; or sometimes it contains special information, to which attention is directed; in other words, 33 is a marked page. It will be remembered for instance, that the enumeration of the chests in “The Repertorie of Records” commenced on page 33. Here is another example:

 

                                                                                                   MINERVA BRITANNIA.

This book was published in 1612, as by Henry Peacham. It contains a series of Devices or Emblems, each with a dedication to some noble or distinguished person, with verses attached. . .[page] 33 is marked with a heavy dot.

This example is especially significant, as the Emblem on page 33, is a covert suggestion of Shakespeare, and it must be remembered that 33 means “Bacon”.

The Emblem, is a hand shaking a spear, and the one on the opposite page, is dedicated to “The most judicious and learned, Sir Francis Bacon, Knight.”⁴                                                                                                                                                       

It is patently obvious the extremely unusual (as far as I am aware unprecedented) device of instructing the printer to place a strip of paper over the footnote was carried out with the clear deliberate intention of drawing attention to it and the concurrence of the letter A in relation to the number 27 vis-a-vis the Kay Cipher. As well as being known and employed by those responsible for the very early editions of Bacon’s works it appear that it was known to the Bishop of Bristol. Bacon’s biographer Alfred Dodd, himself a Freemason, possessed a copy of Archbishop Tenison’s 1679 edition of Baconiana that had on its flyleaf an ostensible reference to the cipher:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This particular copy was originally owned by John Conybeare, Bishop of Bristol, in 1728. He has inscribed his name on the inside front cover, viz., “liber Johannis Conybeare E[xeter] Coll. Oxon.”, and on the flyleaf, half way down, in exactly the same faded ink and penmanship is written the cipher “A/27. ⁵

 

Shrouded in mystification on the inside page of The Repertorie of Records is a verse addressed ‘TO THE VNKNOWNE PATRON’ over two pages comprising 33 printed lines:⁶ 33 Bacon in simple cipher. This is followed on the opposite page by another dedication ‘TO THE SAME PATRON, THE GREAT MASTER of this MYSTERIE. Our Author payeth this, In part of a more summe due.’⁷  

As stated above there begins on page 33 the lettering of the chests starting with A for the first chest and on the following page the letter B is assigned to the second chest. The first of these on page 33 (Bacon in simple cipher) states in a passage comprising 39 words (F. Bacon in simple cipher) these chests were placed in the ‘third Treasurie’ in the Chapiter House of the Abbey of Westminster ‘under a door with three lockes’ (again 3 and 3 placed together yields 33 Bacon in simple cipher). The first two chests are marked A and B with documents from the reign of Henry III ‘put into three great bags, noted ‘A, B, C’ giving the letters BAC an anagrammatic contraction of Bacon.⁸ This list continues on page 85 with the third chest marked C ‘In the third Chest…’⁹ We eventually arrive at the 24^th chest which is marked Z, with the 25^th chest marked ‘&’ the 26^th ‘E’, and the 27^th with a small ‘a’.¹⁰ Clearly, this was all directed to some definite purpose. Unsurprisingly, the meaning and import of this subtle contrivance in conjunction with the covering strip found in only a very few copies of the Resuscitatio lay undetected for three centuries until the Baconian Clifton realised they provided the key for assigning the numerical value of the letters for the Kay Cipher.

Eight years earlier Thomas Powell dedicated a relatively little known work entitled The Attourneys Academy published within weeks of the Shakespeare First Folio in 1623 to the king and his lifelong friend Bacon in terms that bespoke of his familiarity with Bacon’s secret life and writings which has been studiously ignored by his editors and biographers. The reason this revealing dedication to Bacon is not reproduced by Bacon and Shakespeare commentators is it very obviously alludes to Bacon’s secret authorship of the Shakespeare poems and plays with its theatrical metaphor of momentarily pulling the curtain back before closing it again:    

                                                                                                                                  TO 

TRVE NOBILITIE

AND TRYDE LEARNING,  

BEHOLDEN

To no Mountaine for Eminence,

nor Supportment for his Height,

FRANCIS, Lord Verulam, and

Viscount St. Albanes.

 

                    O Giue me leaue to pull the Curtaine by,

                                   That clouds thy Worth in such obscuritie,

                               Good Seneca, stay but a while thy bleeding,

                         T’accept what I receiued at thy reading:

                              Heere I present it in a solemne straine,

                                       And thus I pluckt the Curtaine backe againe.

                                                                                                                                                        The same

                                                                                                                                             THOMAS POWELL.11

 

1. Frank Woodward, Francis Bacon’s Cipher Signatures (London: Grafton and Co., 1923), p. 8.

2. Francis Bacon, The Two Bookes Of the proficence and advauncement of Learning, diuine

     and humane (London: printed for Henry Tomes, 1605), pp. 60-1.  

3. Frank Woodward and Frank Woodward, Secret Shakespearean Seals Revelations Of

    Rosicrucian Arcana Discoveries In The Shakespeare Plays, Sonnets, And Works, Printed

    Circa 1586-1740, Of “Secreti Sigilli,” Concealed Author’s Marks And Signs (Nottingham:

    H. Jenkins, 1916), pp. 27-8.

4. Frank Woodward, Francis Bacon’s Cipher Signatures (London: Grafton and Co., 1923), pp.

    8-11.   

5. Editorial Notes, Baconiana, Vol. XXX. No. 120, July 1946, p. 86.

6. Thomas Powell, ed., The Repertorie Of Records Remaining in The 4 Treasuries on the

    Receipt side at Westminster. The two Rembrancers of the Exchequer. With A briefe

    introductive Index of the Records of the Chancery and Tovver: Whereby to giue the better

    Direction to the Records abouesaid. As also, A most exact Calender of all those Records of

    the Tovver: In which, are contayned and comprised whatsoever may give satisfaction to

    the Searcher, for Tenure or Tytle of any thing (London: printed by B. Alsop and T. Fawcet

    for B. Fisher, 1631), To the Reader, A3^r-v.

7. Ibid., A4v.

8. Ibid., pp. 33-4.

9. Ibid., p. 85.

10. Ibid., pp. 88-9.

11. Thomas Powell, The Attourneys Academy (London: printed for Benjamin Fisher,

        1623), A1^r.

 

 

 

 

 

[Light-of-Truth]

I had scanned pages of the THE REPERTORIE OF RECORDS, 1631 the same time I scanned a table with the Kay numbers in a book from 1592 (I think, maybe 1597) from microfiche. I was writing an article proving the Kay ciphers were is use during Bacon's life.

It had a table of letters and the Kay numbers as they relate. The same book had other cipher tables as well which I also scanned.

 

 

[A Phoenix]

Hi Rob, do you know the author (s) and/or title of these publications?

[Light-of-Truth]

I am trying to remember. I've done a ton of Google searching and haven't had any luck. I'm trying as it is driving me batty. 🙂

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Light-of-Truth

[A Phoenix]

Hi Rob, don't over exert your mind. I usually find if I leave something it comes to me later when I am not thinking about it!

[Allisnum2er]

Thanks A Phoenix for sharing with us more insights into the discovery of the Kaye cipher. One word : CAPTIVATING ! 😃

[Light-of-Truth]

I wonder if "recreations" or some variation of the word was in the title. That may be a different book though.

[A Phoenix]

In Secret Shakespearean Seals Revelations of Rosicrucian Arcana Discoveries in the Shakespeare Plays, Sonnets, and Works Printed Circa 1586-1740, Of “Secreti Sigilli,” Concealed Author’s Marks and Signs (1916) and Francis Bacon’s Cipher Signature (1923) the Woodwards explain that Lord Bacon was the secret head of the Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross who controlled most of the printing and publishing in the Elizabethan and Jacobean reigns. Lord Bacon and his Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross secretly marked the books anonymously and pseudonymously written by FB with their secret signatures and various other cryptic devices. In the two above volumes the Woodwards  set out the simple cipher and kay cipher (referred to by Lord Bacon in the 1605 Advancement of Learning) and the secret cipher signature of the FRA ROSICROSSE in simple and kay cipher and provide numerous examples of its application in the 1623 Shakespeare First Folio including its dedication to the then Grand Master of England, William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke.

 

                                                                      SIMPLE CIPHER

        A   B    C    D    E   F    G   H   I-J    K     L    M   N   O   P   Q    R     S   T   U-V     W    X    Y    Z                                  

        1    2    3    4    5   6    7   8     9    10     11  12  13  14  15  16  17    18  19    20     21  22  23  24  

                                          

                                                                        KAY CIPHER

       A    B    C    D   E    F     G   H    I-J   K      L   M     N   O    P    Q    R    S    T   U-V     W   X     Y   Z

      27  28  29  30  31 32   33  34   35  10     11  12   13  14   15   16  17   18  19   20      21  22   23  24

 

                     F     r    a     R    o    s      i     c     r     o     s     s     e

                     6    17   1    17   14  18    9    3   17   14    18   18    5  =  157

 

                     F     r    a     R    o    s      i     c     r     o     s     s     e

                    32  17  27   17   14  18   35   29  17   14   18  1 8  31  =  287

 

 

[Light-of-Truth]

I'd like to share a thought to add to the above.

Clearly the numbers 157 and 287 are Seal numbers as a signature. The 1916 Secret Shakespearean Seals book associated the numbers with FRA ROSIRCROSSE.

When I started looking for ciphers over 20 years ago, these two numbers were a large part of treasure hunting. Based on what Peter Dawkins taught in his early books. They appear everywhere in the works of the RC and/or Bacon, and of course Shakespeare. Secret Shakespearean Seals is the best introduction for seeking and recognizing these numbers.

Within a few years of finding these two numbers, I started to see more than just a signature. It seemed these numbers have properties of Strength and Permanence. Not only that, but at times I felt like I was working through "lessons" created by Bacon and the RC not only on finding them, but also why they were used, and how to use them myself.

In the years since, those who know how, still use them. There is a Power with them. Keep in mind that what Dee, Bacon and many around them knew or believed about numbers and their properties is much different than how we think about numbers today. They may have understood some things better than we do. And perhaps they attempted to leave us lessons and examples of that secret Knowledge.

Skip to 1776.

UNITED STATES is 157 Simple and 287 Kaye in modern codes.

On July 2 the Declaration of Independence was ratified. It was signed on July 4.

In 1776, July 2 is Day 182 from the beginning of the year, July 4 is Day 182 from the end of the year.

ONE EIGHTY TWO is 157 Simple and 287 Kaye ciphers.

NEW YORK CITY is 157 Simple cipher, the first Capital of the United States.

There is so much more I can mention, but I am suggesting the founders of the US knew about and practiced what Bacon taught regarding 157 and 287.

So yes, these are secret signatures, but that is not all they are. I believe they were used to make something strong and last forever. From what I can see, it works very well.

 

[A Phoenix]

Hi Rob, you are 100% correct that some of the Rosicrucian-Freemasonic Founding Fathers knew about the secret life of Lord Bacon and that he was the original Founding Father of the United States of America and were also familiar with his cipher systems and his concealed authorship of the Shakespeare works. 

[Light-of-Truth]

Yesterday I spent time reading some notes from 2004/2005 when I was on a Yahoo Bacon Group looking for the elusive Kay cipher book I had seen in a library. I saw a note that Thomas Jefferson wrote and published a version of the Bible. It was mentioned to me that Jefferson was a cryptologist, and we all know and it is common Knowledge he was a Baconian.

Now I want to find a facsimile of his Bible and see what he may have left for us to see. 😉

 

[A Phoenix]

Believed by many to be secretly closely associated with the Rosicrucian-Freemasonry Brotherhood, President Jefferson shared with his hero Lord Bacon, an extraordinary knowledge of secret writing. He was familiar with Bacon’s comments on ciphers in The Advancement of Learning which Bacon afterwards greatly expanded upon in De Augmentis Scientiarum and possibly the comments of his editor Tenison about the bi-literal cipher and his statement those who were familiar with Bacon’s writings would know if he were the author whether his name be to it or not (meaning his Shakespeare works). Such was the importance of Jefferson’s construction of one original cipher it earned for him the title of Father of American Cryptography:

 

One cipher system invented before the telegraph was so far ahead of its time, and so much in the spirit of the later inventions, that it deserves to be classed with them. Indeed, it deserves the front rank among them, for this system was beyond doubt the most remarkable of all. So well-conceived was it that today, more than a century and a half of rapid technological progress after its invention, it remains in active use.

But then it was invented by a remarkable man…Thomas Jefferson. He called it his “wheel cypher,” and it seems likely that he invented it either during 1790 to 1793 or during 1797 to 1800….

 …..It was not rediscovered among his papers in the Library of Congress until 1922, coincidentally the year the U.S. Army adopted an almost identical device that had been independently invented. Later, other branches of the American government used the Jefferson system, generally slightly modified, and it often defeated the best efforts of the 20th-century cryptanalysts who tried to break it down! To this day the Navy uses it. This is a remarkable longevity. So important is his system that it confers upon Jefferson the title of Father of American Cryptography. And so original is it that it sets Jefferson upon a pedestal far more prominent than those accorded to men like Vigenere and Cardano, whose names are usually thought to be household words in the history of secret writing.

                                  [David Kahn, The Codebreakers The Story of Secret Writing (New York:Scribner, 1967, 1996), pp. 192-5/1024]

 

[Light-of-Truth]

Image from 1684 where Bacon is 33.

'England's Worthies. The Lives of the Most Eminent Persons from Constantine The Great to This Present time'

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw123963/Englands-Worthies-The-Lives-of-the-Most-Eminent-Persons-from-Constantine-The-Great-to-This-Present-time?LinkID=mp00201&search=sas&sText=francis+bacon&OConly=true&role=sit&rNo=27

Funny, no Edward DeVere in the image. LOL

Shakespeare is not listed. But Bacon is, at number 33.

[A Phoenix]

Great find Rob.

[Allisnum2er]

23 minutes ago, Light-of-Truth said:

Image from 1684 where Bacon is 33.

'England's Worthies. The Lives of the Most Eminent Persons from Constantine The Great to This Present time'

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw123963/Englands-Worthies-The-Lives-of-the-Most-Eminent-Persons-from-Constantine-The-Great-to-This-Present-time?LinkID=mp00201&search=sas&sText=francis+bacon&OConly=true&role=sit&rNo=27

Funny, no Edward DeVere in the image. LOL

Shakespeare is not listed. But Bacon is, at number 33.

Thank you for sharing Rob !

When I discovered this frontispiece possibly 3 years ago , I noticed that 2 portraits had no initials : portrait 46 (Peter Heylin) and portrait 47 (George Monck) .

And 46 + 47 = 93 or IC I see 🙂 

I also noticed that by counting not from top to bottom, but from left to right ,the portrait of Peter Heylin was the 33rd one !

I remember thinking that it could be a clue, that maybe it was not a portrait of Heylin, but I did not go further back. There is certainly much more to discover !

[Allisnum2er]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:53 PM, A Phoenix said:

                THE REPERTORIE OF RECORDS, 1631.                                                                                                                                                                                                

This is a strange and rare book. It is anonymous, and is dedicated “To the unknowne Patron.” It has been assigned to the authorship of T. Powell.

Mr. Clifton’s attention was attracted, by the special mention in this book, on Page 31, of two places closely associated with Francis Bacon.

 

“a box contayning a booke of the enormities of Cardinall Woolsey and his surrender of Yorke House, and Saint Albans, with other lands.”

 

I am not totally sure, but I think that I have found this unknown Patron out !

 

Could it be FR. BACON ? 😉

Edit : 77 words from "Unto" to "end"

77 = MINERVA (simple cipher)  - Francis Bacon's Muse

Edited April 3, 2022 by Allisnum2er

[Allisnum2er]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:53 PM, A Phoenix said:

On page 33, commences a curious lettering of the chests, in which records had been placed. These chests, it says, were placed in the third Treasurie, being the old Chapiter House of the Abbey of Westminster, &c.

Some ideas :

BACON - simple cipher 33

FRA. BACON - simple cipher 39 (33 + 3 + three)

[Light-of-Truth]

77 is also the last Sonnet of the 7th Tier which is the end of the first half (154/2=77) of the Sonnets.

It ends with Day 182, and we know...

ONE EIGHTY TWO is 157 Simple and 287 Kaye cipher.

http://www.light-of-truth.com/pyramid-GMT.php#Sonnet077

So we may have the Seal numbers that show up everywhere important. 😉

[Allisnum2er]

When I saw Record and Chest, I immediatly thought of the Rosie-Cross.

Then I realized that the word CREST was concealed !

And what a surprise discovering the CREST of the Abbey of Westminster !

Coat of Arms of the Abbey of Westminster by Fenn-O-maniC CC BY-SA 4.0 

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

We have the Roses and the Cross 🙂 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Allisnum2er

[Kate]

I have just re-read this thread in greater detail than when I skimmed it the first time.
 

I was thinking,  maybe there should be a new topic where the top 5 (or 10) pieces of evidence (that Bacon was Shakespeare) can be listed for anyone visiting the forum who is unsure how to find the most compelling evidence out of the mountain that is referenced. What AP wrote up above would surely be on that list. K